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[Typhon]

^^^^^^
The only "cult" around here is your cult of denial.  You would rather see despicable people get away with rigging an election, just because you hate the man it was rigged against.  That is really sick.

[Charger]

It's very similar to the Flat Earth Society material, MUFON, and other pseudoscience groups that will cling to their central myths, all the while denouncing proof of their falsehoods as part of a vast conspiracy against them. It's a no-win situation for anyone trying to explain the inherent falsehoods in the wild ravings. There's an a priori assumption that anything that proves the central myth false to be itself false.

MUFON can't possibly be grouped together with Flat Earthers for fucks sake!

Just if you don't believe in extra terrestrial life doesn't mean there isn't any...It is in fact pretty much 100% certainty that there is...Let's not be so full of ourselves to say that we are the only sentient life in a universe that is so vast it is incomprehensible.

Also there are dozens of sightings of unidentified flying objects (or Unidentified Aerial Phenomena as they are now called) made around the world everyday. Even if they aren't from other worlds they still remain unidentified and studying them is hardly pseudoscience...

Calling extra terrestrial life inherent falsehood is just...I don't even know what that is...is most certainly is beneath you...I would like to hope anyways.

[Zzzptm]

@Charger: MUFON puts out a lot of misleading and false information. It doesn't do anything to prove or disprove anything about extraterrestrial life, but it doesn't help research being done when they advance false claims.

@Typhon: QED. For the record, I'm against rigging of elections. I am glad that evidence clearly shows that the USA election of November 2020 was not rigged. Trump clearly lost, in spite of Republican-backed efforts to suppress and intimidate the vote in many of the states under a Republican-dominated state government. We have records that Trump and his circle planned to lie about the election in the event of a defeat. Their intent was to cast doubt on a valid result to justify their attempts to overturn the election through the court system and, failing that, by force.

I don't hate Donald Trump, either. I do pity him, but I do not hate him. He is someone who is blinded by his own manipulations, and that's a terrible mental prison to have to live in.

If you want to find out just how the lies about the election were set up and how inconsistent they are with what actually happened, the information is out there to set you free. I don't expect to or even want to change your underlying views on social, political, or economic issues. I just hope that you'll find a way out of the falsehoods. You live in Massachusetts, so it's not a matter of striving for your vote or anything ulterior like that. I just care about you as a friend, that's my motive here.

[Typhon]

I am glad that evidence clearly shows that the USA election of November 2020 was not rigged.

It is obvious you did not watch the 2000 Mules documentary.  It exposed just how this fraud was accomplished.  Not just from the tracking of cell phone ping data, but actual videos of it happening from multiple locations in as many as 6 different states.  They have over 4 million minutes of video evidence.  It is overwhelming.

[Charger]

@Charger: MUFON puts out a lot of misleading and false information. It doesn't do anything to prove or disprove anything about extraterrestrial life, but it doesn't help research being done when they advance false claims.

Mufon pretty much just shows off footage that other people have captured of UEP's...sure they can sometime lay it on bit thick on the side of "it must be extra terrestrial" because most of them are believers but they also do very much investigate the sightings and have proven a whole bunch of them either fakes or natural phenomena...

[Zzzptm]

I am glad that evidence clearly shows that the USA election of November 2020 was not rigged.

It is obvious you did not watch the 2000 Mules documentary.  It exposed just how this fraud was accomplished.  Not just from the tracking of cell phone ping data, but actual videos of it happening from multiple locations in as many as 6 different states.  They have over 4 million minutes of video evidence.  It is overwhelming.

I'm sorry, but the film is a fiction of bits and pieces that fit their narrative. It's presented in a way that looks impressive, but anything looks impressive when you fail to include the details that completely undermine and disprove one's narrative. The phone ping data cannot distinguish between different persons passing by a location and the "pattern of life" filtering is a limited fix, not one that makes for strong forensic conclusions. When the filmmakers claimed to match geolocation signals with protest attendance records from ACLED, ACLED countered that that was impossible since they don't track cellphone data. The direct untruth stated in the film was later retconned by the filmmakers after ACLED proved them false.

The discussion of geolocation data in a homicide cold case is also untrue. The homicide was not a cold case. The data the filmmakers claim was used by the feds to make an arrest never happened, as the state police made the arrest and there was no indication that geolocation data had a role in the case. While the filmmakers did contact the FBI with what they held to be useful data, the GBI indicates it never received such information from the FBI.

The film shows a geolocation map superimposed over a map of what they claim to be Atlanta. It was actually a map of Moscow. Another diagram purports to show how someone went to 28 different ballot boxes. Superimposing that diagram on a map of actual ballot box locations only has a few of those diagram positions actually near ballot box locations.

The film includes scenes of what they allege to be persons depositing multiple ballots into drop boxes. Most states allow ballot collection on behalf of family members. There is an allegation that a woman is depositing a small stack of ballots, but it's not clear if there truly is more than one ballot. But that incident was also on 5 January 2021, not during the 2020 election. As for casting aspersions on people with gloves, there were lots more people wearing gloves during November 2020 due to the COVID pandemic.

There is the matter of the "frustrated" man on a bicycle. There is no evidence of frustration. That the man later takes a photo of his bike by a ballot box is not immediately suspicious, as Georgia, along with other states, was encouraging its citizens to share election experiences as part of a positive "get out the vote" campaign. That particular drop box had multiple images from different voters shared on social media.

There were three surveillance videos from the film that Georgia did investigate - all three showed lawful depositing of multiple ballots, according to Georgia investigators.

Left out of the film is the requirement that all absentee ballots require the following:
1. Be in an envelope sent from the state to the voter
2. Said envelope includes the voter's registration info, signature, and barcode for verification

Ballots without the above requirements are set aside as either invalid or spoiled, essentially rejected.

While D'Souza in the film alleges that a man depositing votes for himself and his family is committing a crime with fraudulent ballots, D'Souza has zero evidence of any illegal ballot trafficking operation. D'Souza opines that ballots delivered in the manner the man in the film delivered them would be invalid. The chairman of the Georgia election board explains that a valid ballot remains so regardless of how it was received.

The allegation of 1155 "mules" in Philadelphia is false. A single anonymous witness who "assumed" she saw something shady in Arizona is all the evidence presented. No evidence for any other state is presented to substantiate the allegations of payments for votes. There are multiple speculative statements about how the filmmakers presume ballots could have been stolen or coerced, but no surveillance video to show anyone dropping off ballots more than once.

There are aspersions cast on how votes are tallied and that states swung as the counts were completed. In-person votes are counted first, and Republicans tend to vote in-person most frequently. So, yes, their numbers are likely to have the first complete tally. Then the absentee ballots, with a higher Democratic percentage of voters in them, are tallied. Once all the votes are tallied, the official election results are called by officials. The disparity was more pronounced in 2020, as Republican politicians had strongly encouraged their supporters to vote in person and many Democratic voters saw absentee voting as a means of exercising their constitutional right to vote in a way that did not jeopardize their health in the ongoing pandemic.

The last third of the film is a panel discussion of persons who all work for Salem Media Group, the film's executive producer.

Phillips said in an interview with Charlie Kirk, a film panelist, that it took a great effort to conduct data analysis and that the analysis was conducted at the High Performance Computing Collaboratory ad Mississippi State University. The university was not aware of any such analysis. They did note that Phillips had taken a tour that was open to the public and leased office space in a in the same office park as the HPCC, albeit a separate building.

The film alleges two women in Yuma, AZ were engaging in unlawful ballot collection and that they had shared that information with the sheriff there. The sheriff denies the claim. The sheriff did state he was investigating a range of alleged voter misconduct issues for over a year, none of which were related to claims made in the film.

True the Vote did not cooperate with Georgia election officials in their investigations. The Georgia State Election Board subpoenaed True the Vote in April 2022 for its documentation. The GBI examined the True the Vote allegations in 2021, but did not find sufficient evidence to open an investigation. The GBI noted that data provided by TtV counted "visits" that were as much as 100ft from the drop boxes. GBI noted that cell site location information used by TtV is far less accurate than GPS data.

Many factual errors, omissions, implausible claims in the film, with persons involved unable to back up any of their assertions in an evidentiary way. D'Souza even admitted to Philip Bump that the movie does not show evidence to prove his claims.

Phillips called press who demonstrated the lack of proof and errors "journalistic terrorists." Asked if he provided any evidence to law enforcement, Phillips stated he'd given data to the AZ attorney general. The office of the AZ attorney general said they never received any such information. Phillips declines to discuss the methodology used in the film.

In an AP survey about drop boxes sent to state election officials in May 2022, 45 states responded, reporting no instances of drop boxes being connected with voter fraud or stolen ballots, and only a handful of cases where boxes were damaged.

The film is a fiction of bits and pieces that fit the narrative, including unsubstantiated speculations, baseless claims, and outright lies. When they say things that are not true, like claims they worked with law enforcement when they, in fact, did not, they are lying. That's not the only example from what I've noted, above. So given the multiple lies they have told, how can a one put any stock in what they claim?

***

Now, the sad thing is that, even though the film is totally without any sort of evidentiary merit, it will continue to be referenced as a touchpoint for a community that subscribes to the mythos it describes. That community feels rejected and unheard by a wider world. It feels close and respected within its own bounds. Continual participation in that community is difficult to impossible for persons who no longer believe in the central mythos. That, in turn, builds a resistance to any information that undermines the mythos.

There was a researcher who attended flat earth meetings. He had a dinner with one of the participants and they discussed a phenomenon: one can go 60 miles east of Chicago on Lake Michigan and still see the skyline. Even though the curvature of the earth places the top of the skyline below the horizon, there it is. The flat earth believers point to that as evidence the world lacks curvature. Persons outside that community respond that the view is possible because of some optics conditions created by the lake, atmosphere, temperature variations, and that, 100 miles east on Lake Michigan, those optics conditions no longer hold and the skyline - real or mirage - will not be visible.

So the researcher asked the flat earth believer if he'd be willing to take a boat out on Lake Michigan to 60 and then 100 miles east of Chicago and have a look for himself. It would be a friendly thing, and the researcher offered to pay for the whole thing. At first, the flat earth believer was willing, but then later expressed a concern that maybe it wouldn't actually prove anything and might be a waste of time and declined the offer.

It's one case, granted. But I've also seen footage of flat earthers conducting experiments to prove the earth is flat, then getting results consistent with the known curvature of the earth, and then concluding that, yet again, all their equipment must be faulty... and then proceed to NOT check their equipment or ask for a replacement. Taken collectively, it's the phenomenon of a community clinging to a belief in a mythos and finding ways to ignore, avoid, or rationalize anything that demonstrates the mythos is not an actual reality. As Pushkin said, they reject ten thousand truths to cling to the illusion that sustains them.

I read of conservative commentators and personalities who wanted nothing to do with 2000 Mules later get branded as RINOs or worse by those who wanted to believe that something as the film narrates actually happened. Rather than answer the valid criticisms, they made personal attacks and cut them off. It seems that it would be a simple matter to come forward with evidence to keep allies in their camp. But, without evidence, personal attacks and shunning is all they have to enforce discipline around the central myth.

Take care, friend, and I hope you can find your way out of the falsehoods.

[Zzzptm]

@Charger: MUFON puts out a lot of misleading and false information. It doesn't do anything to prove or disprove anything about extraterrestrial life, but it doesn't help research being done when they advance false claims.

Mufon pretty much just shows off footage that other people have captured of UEP's...sure they can sometime lay it on bit thick on the side of "it must be extra terrestrial" because most of them are believers but they also do very much investigate the sightings and have proven a whole bunch of them either fakes or natural phenomena...

It's that lay it on bit thick and jumping to conclusions that I was referring to. Clean those things out and the research becomes much better.

[Typhon]

^^^^^^
^^^^^^
Copying and pasting statements from liberal leaning websites is certainly not the way to discredit a documentary.  Such sources have a track record of anti-Trump behavior.

I wish I had a boatload of time to expose each and every lie in your post, but I don't.  So I will expose one of the easy ones.  You claimed the following:
 

The film shows a geolocation map superimposed over a map of what they claim to be Atlanta. It was actually a map of Moscow.

The screen shot below shows, on the left, the actual geolocation map from a still shot in the 2000 Mules documentary.  On the right is a map of Atlanta from Google Maps.  It is obvious they are of the same area.



All the evidence in the world is never going to be enough for the Trump bigoted left or Trump bigoted people.  Have a nice day.

[Zzzptm]

Er... Bill Barr, Ben Shapiro, Fox News, and Newsmax are not "liberal leaning websites". They were highly critical of D'Souza's film and the views expressed in it.

Of all the things, you picked the map one. Not any of the ones where election officials said there was no wrongdoing or that no investigations resulted from D'Souza's (or an associate of D'Souza's) notifying them of what they claim to have discovered for the film. Also did not take on any of the points where persons involved with the film were caught in a direct lie, where they made a claim about an interaction with a person or government entity that never happened. I don't think it would take boatloads of time to do a little homework and show some actual evidence for an extraordinary claim.

D'Souza himself pled guilty to felony campaign finance violations in 2014.

Back to the claims made in the film, there is zero paper trail. There's zero social media trail. In the 6 battleground states of 2020, there were a total of 475 cases of voter fraud. Of the fraudulent votes, not all were for Biden. Also, not all the fraudulent votes were even counted - many acts of voter fraud are caught because the submitted ballot is itself suspect and therefore, not counted. Virtually every case involved a single person acting alone, attempting to cast more than one ballot. In the case of Arizona, which had the highest ratio of fraudulent ballots to margin of victory for Biden, it was only 198 to over 10,000 - and not all of those 198 were for Biden, anyway. In many cases, the fraudulent votes were committed by persons who thought they could vote while on parole in states that did not allow that, or persons attempting to vote on behalf of relatives who couldn't make it to the polls. Some did try to vote for dead relatives - but, again, those involved Republicans as well as Democrats, and all were part of the 475 found fraudulent.

Back to claims that warrant some kind of response - the filmmakers claimed that they had data from ACLED that ACLED does not collect. The filmmakers also claimed to use computer systems for their data analysis that they did not use. I'm not asking for all the evidence in the world, I'm just asking if those lies have any sort of reconciliation. If not, they impeach the source - fruit of the poisonous tree and all that.

[Typhon]

Part of Ben Shapiro's concluding remarks about the documentary:

"I think the complete dismissal by the left about the allegations made in the film is unconvincing.  In other words, more information is necessary, and I hope that law enforcement does take a look at cell phone data . . ."

And I agree with Ben.  Law enforcement should step in and determine what is accurate and what is not with proper investigations.  But of course many don't want to, because of fear as to what they may find.   Just claiming someone's evidence is faulty, without proving it is faulty, is not worth anything. 

[Charger]

Shapiro makes a good point on this one...as he quite often does.

Honestly though I don't think conclusive proof one way or another can be found anymore...IF there was fraud I'm sure it was done quite masterfully.

US isn't some african dictator ship where they just dump the ballots to the nearest trash can and replace them with votes for the dictator...it is bit more sophisticated than that there I am sure!


The problem with election fraud is that when done right it is nearly impossible to prove and considering that the winner is in office his lackies (I'm saying lackies here because I don't think for a second Biden would even have the faculties to be part in something like this...) can do what ever they can to influence the investigation as well...


Either way those elections will leave a stain to the US election system forever no doubt about it...and hopefully something will change...I doubt it though.

[Zzzptm]

Law enforcement did get engaged and found 475 cases involving persons associated with both major political parties involved in voter fraud actions.

The evidence *is* proven faulty, and the persons putting it forward have made a number of categorical lies. While Mr. Shapiro did not want to see a complete dismissal, he nevertheless had questions of his own. But Mr. Shapiro's praise or damnation does nothing for addressing the fundamental lies being told. I focused on two: the ACLED data and the HPCC being used for data analysis. These are both critical elements of the entire story. If ACLED did not provide any data, then the part of the story that hinges on ACLED data falls apart. If HPCC was not used for data analysis, then the whole data analysis story is tainted with a lie. If there was no data to analyze and no facility used to analyze the data that wasn't there, then the film comes down to nothing more than speculation without grounding in actual facts.

As for detecting election fraud, it's typically done by the party currently in power in a constituency and done to impact all elections, not just one. "When done right" is in a constituency where local judges and law enforcement are sympathetic to the party with local control and take the form of not prosecuting clear violations. Election fraud is done to keep the ruling party in power. The truth of the matter of the US Presidential Election of 2020 is that in many Republican-held constituencies, people did not vote for Trump as much as they voted for their own local Republican politicians. In Texas, for example, Senator John Cornyn got 4% more votes than Trump and carried Tarrant and Williamson counties, both of which went for Biden in the presidential election. Maine went for Biden (all but one electoral vote), but voted in a Republican senator. Trump simply failed to present himself as a candidate preferable to Biden, and the majority of voters as well as the majority of electoral votes confirmed Biden as the popular choice for president, even if the election of a Democratic president did not translate into broader Democratic victories down-ballot.

If one wants true one-party rule in the USA, it must involve control of the presidency, both houses of Congress, and an overwhelmingly partisan judiciary. Any person involved in national politics knows that failure to control any one of those will result in full political power being thwarted. If there was a conspiracy to elect Biden by stealing the election and then that conspiracy failed to get another 11 Democratic senators to slam-dunk his agenda, then that conspiracy was dumb. And if that conspiracy was dumb, it would have left a massive paper trail. There was no paper trail, no alleged tampering on the part of the ballots that elected Republicans in non-presidential races, so I'm going with the facts at hand: It was a clean election, and there was no massive fraud.

So, explain to me ACLED and HPCC. Otherwise, it seems like you're avoiding the actual meat of the issue. Happy to let you have Ben Shapiro's faint praise and I'll not even contest the map thing. But if there's no good answer for ACLED not giving them info and a flat lie about the data analysis, then this is some flat-earth-equivalent stuff. There are plenty of ways to be a modern conservative in the USA without resorting to flat-earth-equivalent nonsense. If there's no good answer for ACLED or HPCC, then I refuse to put trust in the words of a person who pled guilty to felony campaign finance violations. He's demonstrated that he was willing to break the law to support his political faction, so for him to just lie and make stuff up is well within that range. For him to holler conspiracy is conceivably to distract from something much worse being done by the faction he supports. So, ACLED and HPCC - both, or this is groundless partisan rantings.

[Charger]

I think it's time to put a pin on this conversation...it's heading nowhere fast.

One is oblivious to facts pointing towards tampering and vice versa.

Agree to disagree on the subject and it's time to move on to something else we can jibber jabber about.

[Typhon]

Okay Charger, I'll respect your order.  You are probably right about the conversation going nowhere anyhow, because any statement I disprove would never be enough.  I prove 1 statement to be a lie, "but you didn't prove this is a lie."  Then I prove this a lie, "but you didn't prove that is a lie."  And it goes on forever.

[Charger]

Not an order buddy just a heavy hearted suggestion...

There indeed is no end in sight for this.