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[Typhon]

This is not a "dumb guy act". Also, I think you intended that comment as an insult to me, but I won't receive it as such.

There was no insult.  Acting like a dumb guy means you are not actually a dumb guy.  A tactic some people use when they don't want to admit something to be true is to pretend they don't know or understand.  I believe you knew that the average number of illegals crossing the border per month is way higher under Biden, but you were pretending to not know this fact.  So, if anything, I was indicting that you knew more than you say.  So, there was no insult.

[Zzzptm]

Well, I am glad then that I didn't take it as a slam.

But what I do know is that illegal immigration peaked in 2000 and has fallen off sharply since then. So if you have data to support something to the contrary, I would like to be pointed to it.

But that still doesn't answer the main question I had, which is underscored now by a class-action lawsuit against DeSantis and accounts of another trip being organized and then abandoned after the public reaction to the first batch of flights - are you accepting of DeSantis' act of cruelty?

[Typhon]

^^^^^^
Sense you apparently don't know the truth of how Biden has caused this crisis, I'll let this guy explain how it came about.  He sites specific laws and shows the data.

[Zzzptm]

Data is not a YouTube video from a partisan. It looks like this: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/11/09/whats-happening-at-the-u-s-mexico-border-in-7-charts/

Which does show border encounters increasing following Biden's accession in 2021. It also shows the majority of border encounters result in immediate expulsion. But we also see legitimate asylum claimants from failing Communist regimes in Cuba, Nicaragua, and Venezuela. https://www.texastribune.org/2022/09/19/u-s-mexico-border-arrests-record-2022/

***

But my issue is not about whether or not there is a spike in border encounters. My issue is your seeming strong support for an act of cruelty done by Governor DeSantis. I've asked in simple terms several times for your response to confirm whether or not you support it and you keep putting forward responses to other items.

And I find DeSantis' act of cruelty to be even more disturbing after I find its connection to the "Reverse Freedom Rides" of 1962. In 1962, as Freedom Riders drove across the South, risking their lives to protest the inhumanity of segregation, the White Citizens' Councils across the region responded by approaching Blacks with bus tickets to the Kennedy compound in Hyannis, promising their marks that the Kennedys were awaiting them with open arms, jobs, and benefits. Over 200 were sent North in that fashion. Southern propaganda claimed that the Kennedys and people of Massachusetts were hypocrites for not taking care of the Blacks. The reality was that then, as now, the White Supremacists lied to people that they already held in contempt and saw as disposable towards the furthering of their political goals.

So let me be crystal clear: there is nothing currently happening along the border or with immigration or with asylum that justifies a naked act of racial discriminiation such as DeSantis and Abbott perpetrated. For these men to take a page from the Segregationist playbook and then be applauded for it by their own party shows how racist and hateful the Republican Party has let itself become. It is a political coalition dominated by ideas on the wrong side of history: anti-abortion, nativism, and racism. Nobody forced or tricked DeSantis and Abbott into using White Supremacist tactics from the 1960s: the actions came easily to them and their supporters easily approved of them.

I do not now and never will approve of acts in which people are lied to and then abandoned. And I do not hold responsible the people at the site of the abandonment for the ill-treatment of the abandoned, but, rather, those who created the situation in the first place for their own benefit are responsible for the damages done.

[Vyn]

Nobody forced or tricked DeSantis and Abbott into using White Supremacist tactics from the 1960s: the actions came easily to them and their supporters easily approved of them.

The same tactics used by actual nazis in the late 30's, and by the folks in Dahomey in the 18th century, and no doubt a whole litany of others throughout history. Man's inhumanity to man is a constant. Obviously, these immigrants weren't being sent to an extermination camp or sold into slavery, but the process of manipulating people in an uneven power balance scenario is the same.

I do not now and never will approve of acts in which people are lied to and then abandoned. And I do not hold responsible the people at the site of the abandonment for the ill-treatment of the abandoned, but, rather, those who created the situation in the first place for their own benefit are responsible for the damages done.

I basically agree - my contention with the folks at the Vineyard (or the city of Chicago for another example) is that they had an opportunity to be something better for those immigrant groups and chose not to. Despite the unexpected nature of the situation they were facing, a lot could have been done that I think would have elevated them in the eyes of the country and shown those immigrants that even though some of the authorities in America are no different than the selfish tyrants in their own banana republic, they are the unfortunate exception and not the rule.

What DeSantis did was inexcusable. His attempt at defending his actions were mealy-mouthed nonsense. And I am of the opinion that our borders should be tightly controlled. But if you are here, and under the control of our authorities, they either need to send you back or help you get setup here. Not use you to score political points with your constituents.




 

[Typhon]

I can't agree with the claim that what DeSantis did was cruel.  He's not the one who put up the sign on Hypocrite Island saying everyone is welcomed.  And, like Vyn says, the people there had the opportunity to prove DeSantis wrong and do something for the migrants.  But they didn't.  I will agree that it would be cruel of DeSantis to send more migrants to Hypocrite Island now that he knows those residence are lying pieces of shit.  But for merely testing the integrity of the residence, certainly not.

Now, here is a brief report on the increasing number of dead bodies being discovered at the southern border because of more people trying to cross.  You want to use the term cruel?  Well the Biden immigration policy is responsible for these extra deaths.  Now that's cruel!

https://air.tv/?v=0sXZS8YWQiGX7VzeEnn7Xw

[Zzzptm]

OK, then. If you're good with segregationist-era tactics, we're going to be at an impasse on that discussion. You also supported the Trump policy of forcibly separating children from their parents, so I'm not accepting lectures on cruelty from you without your being comprehensive in your review of the flaws of US immigration policy. If all you get out of this is how the Democrats are bad and fail completely to acknowledge any flaw in Republican policy, then you've got a one-sided view that I don't want to engage with.

[Charger]

You also supported the Trump policy of forcibly separating children from their parents

Wasn't that policy implemented already during the Obama administration but only became public after Trump got into the office?

[Zzzptm]

You also supported the Trump policy of forcibly separating children from their parents

Wasn't that policy implemented already during the Obama administration but only became public after Trump got into the office?

It was not. The Trump application of the policy was novel to that administration, both in use case expansion and making the application of the policy much broader than originally intended.

[Charger]

Hmmm...maybe...I do recall similar treatments though during the Obama era....And well it's not that unheard of though...children are much more eligible for assylum than adults in many countries. And there have been many cases of parents sending their children in to the US alone in the mercy of coyotes....many of them suffered horrible fates.

[Zzzptm]

The Libertarian in me wants to see more open borders and allow for a freer exchange of populations. I see solutions for drugs and terrorism in better US foreign policy objectives and outcomes than what are currently used by either party.

[Typhon]

OK, then. If you're good with segregationist-era tactics, we're going to be at an impasse on that discussion. You also supported the Trump policy of forcibly separating children from their parents, so I'm not accepting lectures on cruelty from you without your being comprehensive in your review of the flaws of US immigration policy. If all you get out of this is how the Democrats are bad and fail completely to acknowledge any flaw in Republican policy, then you've got a one-sided view that I don't want to engage with.

This is not my view, but your interpretation of my view.  So cut the bullshit.  You just don't want to admit that under the Biden administration way more immigrants are dying.

You also supported the Trump policy of forcibly separating children from their parents

Wasn't that policy implemented already during the Obama administration but only became public after Trump got into the office?

That's exactly right.  In fact, many migrants with children couldn't even prove the children were theirs.  Some tried to enter with a child because they were told they were more likely to succeed if accompanied by a child.  The news media play this up when Trump did it and were silent when Obama did it.

[Zzzptm]

Cut the bullshit, eh?

How is your view *not* a support of segregation? In these forums, you've made racist jokes and admitted them as such, you've made frequent citations of white supremacists' comments, and you've spoken highly of politicians who push white-supremacist friendly agendas. The evidence trail is clear and continuous. You are fine to crow about an act of cruelty until pressed on its cruelty and similarity to segregation-era tactics. Now, you avoid that question and give no yes or no answer on the matter. Your silence on the matter is deafening, Typhon. I see no vigorous denial that you do not support white supremacists, that you do not support policies that have negative racial bias inherent in their application, or that you do not align with politicians who leverage negative racial and cultural stereotypes for their political gain. If there is no denial, I have to conclude support, even if it is not a support that you feel bold enough to declare in a peer group. Your silence on the matter is deafening.

You even attempt to dodge the question of your support for segregationism and/or institutional negative racial inequality with a promotion of a Big Lie that justifies institutional negative racial inequality: Obama separated children, and nobody said nothing about it.

That is a massive lie that was cooked up to scramble to cover the disastrous Trump executive order that forcibly separated children. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_separation_policy

The actual truth goes back to the pre-Trump policy of having family separations only in situations in which human trafficking, outstanding warrants, or fraud or other narrow circumstances. That was the fulness of the familial separations pre-Trump. Sparse in application, guided by established legal principles. The Obama modifications to the policy included provisions for ensuring that children were able to reunite with families and that the separations were no longer than 21 days.

The Trump executive order that forcibly separated families at the border had no provisions for reuniting families, in spite of claims to the contrary. The evidence shows that those claims were empty and that record-keeping was abysmal. We do not even know the full number of Trump-separated children, except that we know it is over 3000, and that it is likely several thousand more than 3000, but we do not know the full number due to terrible record-keeping under the Trump policy. As it was, when the policy was reversed and the children were being rejoined, residual records were able to rejoin only 60 families. The rest were matters to be resolved via investigation. Several hundred children were detained longer than 300 days, in spite of the Obama-era restriction that the detentions be less than 21 days still being in force.

The conditions the Trump separations inflicted on the children included overcrowding, lack of access to bedding, lack of access to running water for showering and drinking, lack of food, lack of health care, and lack of sanitation. At no point were detainees under the Obama or Bush, Jr. administrations subjected to such inhumane conditions. At no point did either of those prior administrations have a situation that was decried as "a human rights crisis" because they, unlike Trump, were not using forcible familial separations as a means of deterring illegal immigration.

By repeating the Big Lie, you have spoken in favor of forcibly separating families from their children, which connects back to your prior support of segregation-like tactics that were inflicted upon asylum-seekers. You claim that this is not your view, but my interpretation of your view, yet, you clearly come out with statements that indicate that this, in fact, is your view. If it is not, then you have an explanation to make to reconcile your support of the cruel and inhumane treatments doled out under the Trump administration and by his proteges in state governments.

[Charger]

Okay let's cut that white supremacist shit right now...no one here is one and no one here condones that stuff so there is absolutely no reason to bring shit like that up...

Posts like that are not what this place is about.

[Typhon]

Okay let's cut that white supremacist shit right now...no one here is one and no one here condones that stuff so there is absolutely no reason to bring shit like that up...

Posts like that are not what this place is about.

Yeah, that rant did kind of shock me.  I think Zzz believes that anything I say is race-based, when in fact I don't care what anybody's race is.  It is kind of amusing to think that if the 50 illegals DeSantis sent to the Island were all white, I would have had the same reaction and then we would have no problem here.