Maturity in Faith, Belief, Opinion

[Typhon]

^^^^^^
And that's all fine.  A person can believe what ever they want.  It's when that said person starts to preach there stuff to others is when I say, "Hey!  Let's see the proof or keep your mouth shut!"  Which is basically what I told BTE in the other forum.

[Sicko FanAtic]

^^^^^^
I've never seen any evidences or facts that indicate there exists a god.

Which would explain your stance on the existence of said god.

The question for me, a believer, is whether or not that freaks me out, causes me to become angry, want to desperately try to make you see...

... or to live and let live. If I can do the latter and none of the former, I have a maturity about my faith that allows others the freedom to believe or not believe as they see fit, which is precisely the freedom I want for myself. "Do to others as you would have them do to you" seems to be a consistent refrain across cultures, faiths, humanitarian movements, and the like. When it is heeded, we all benefit and live in peace.

If I were blind, and somebody else had the capability to lift the scales from my eyes, I would have them do that please. So much for the Golden rule, haha.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[Sicko FanAtic]

Likewise, if I were a fundamentalist Christian and believed people who do not believe the same as I do would burn in hell for all eternity, the Golden rule would lead me to proselytize. Doesn't seem particularly immature.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[Zzzptm]

Likewise, if I were a fundamentalist Christian and believed people who do not believe the same as I do would burn in hell for all eternity, the Golden rule would lead me to proselytize. Doesn't seem particularly immature.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

But the manner of the proselytization can be immature. There were, of course, the forced conversions of the Saxons by Charlemagne in which they were offered the choice of having either a little water on the head or a big axe on the neck. Sincere belief that he was doing the right thing and all, but even his own religious advisors argued against such a forced, mass conversion.

Forced conversions were also the order of the day in many of the campaigns that exploded out of Arabia after the birth of Islam. Islam in those regions tended to be harsh, unyielding, and uncompromising. Whereas, the elective conversions brought about through trade with Arabs in East Africa and Indonesia tended to be more flexible, even syncretic in its application.

When the Sufi movement emerged, it was often persecuted in the lands where conquest spread Islam and often embraced by the people where Islam spread through peaceful contact. Sufism itself has a very interesting philosophical approach to religion that itself can translate across sectarian divides. One sees this especially in India, where ghazal singers craft their performances to appeal to an audience of multiple faiths.

[Typhon]

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . We need believing people."  -  Adolf Hitler

[Zzzptm]

What prompted the Hitler quote? I'm curious.

[Typhon]

What prompted the Hitler quote? I'm curious.

I ran across it whilst taking a quiz on the website Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF.org).  I was considering becoming a member.

[Zzzptm]

What prompted the Hitler quote? I'm curious.

I ran across it whilst taking a quiz on the website Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF.org).  I was considering becoming a member.

That club might just suit you.

And while I'm still an observant, religious person, I also agree that church and state need to be kept apart. It's safer for everyone in a society when the government is secular and keeps religious influences at arm's length. When there was debate about freedom of religion at the writing of the Bill of Rights, Madison and his supporters were adamant that the freedom wasn't limited to Christians, or even believers, but for the freedom of conscience for all persons. I would even want to see the end to mandatory recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance, which I see as a form of state religion.

[Typhon]

I would even want to see the end to mandatory recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance, which I see as a form of state religion.

You was making some sense until this.   

[Zzzptm]

I would even want to see the end to mandatory recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance, which I see as a form of state religion.

You was making some sense until this.   

Well, it's got the words "Under God" in it, for starters. Those were added in the 1950s to suss out all the godless Commies infiltrating our schools and Boy Scout troops...

The original salute looked like this:



THAT got changed in 1941, due to war with another nation that used a form of that salute...

And while a daily pledge of loyalty is fine with me for government employees, I don't think it should be mandatory in schools. If it's not voluntary, it's something that gets mocked easily, ignored, put up with, seen as a burden. When I work with scout troops, I make sure to say it carefully and seriously - I am doing it voluntarily there. When I was a teacher, I was required by law to stand and repeat it, and I did so without mocking or irony, but it was easy to see other students not taking it seriously precisely because it was mandated.

If my loyalty has to be coerced, I'm a slave, not a free citizen. If my loyalty doesn't have to be coerced, the repetition of a pledge of allegiance makes as no difference to my support of my nation and the peoples in it.

Another objection I have to the pledge is that it does not include the word "equality". That word was conscientiously left out so as not to antagonize school board members that were segregationists or who were against women's suffrage. We're beyond those things as a nation, so how about adding "equality" and taking out "under God"?

[Typhon]

^^^^^^
". . . one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" seems fine to me.

To clarify, you can not be a "slave", if you have the option to leave.  If anyone does not like the rules here, then they are free to go somewhere else.

[Vyn]

I'm not a number, I'm a free man!

[Typhon]

^^^^^^
I remember those opening lines from that show back in the 60's?  I think it was called The Prisoner?

[Vyn]

That would be it. Patrick McGoohan!

[Zzzptm]

^^^^^^
". . . one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" seems fine to me.

To clarify, you can not be a "slave", if you have the option to leave.  If anyone does not like the rules here, then they are free to go somewhere else.

"Free to go", provided the person has enough money for the move, employment waiting in the destination country, and is healthy enough to make the move.

Much easier to get rid of nationalistic mumbo-jumbo and consider patriotism to be more than reciting a state-sponsored rosary.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk