Maturity in Faith, Belief, Opinion

[Billy Underdog]

^^^^^^
This "system" you refer to is nothing more than probability.

Depends from where your point of view is. When in the midst of it it might appear that way, but in hindsight things will always make sence.

[Sicko FanAtic]

^^^^^^
This "system" you refer to is nothing more than probability.

Depends from where your point of view is. When in the midst of it it might appear that way, but in hindsight things will always make sence.

Make sense in what sense? Since sense cannot be made, it must be sensed, I, for one, am incensed at all of this nonsense! That's just my two cents.

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[Billy Underdog]

Make sense in what sense? Since sense cannot be made, it must be sensed, I, for one, am incensed at all of this nonsense! That's just my two cents.

That's a good explanation...

[Zzzptm]

^^^^^^
This "system" you refer to is nothing more than probability.

Depends from where your point of view is. When in the midst of it it might appear that way, but in hindsight things will always make sence.

Make sense in what sense? Since sense cannot be made, it must be sensed, I, for one, am incensed at all of this nonsense! That's just my two cents.

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I sense that you're using this in a sense intended to try to make some sense by not making sense. Now to just find a way to work in scents and sents, and I'll be home free on the pun front.

But back to the random/planned thing... one of my beliefs is that one reason we are here is to be tested about what we will choose when not in the presence of God. Before we came here, we were tested what we will choose in the presence of God, so we are here for the next test, as it were. Anyway, the world has to be such that we're not able to have direct evidence of God until *after* our belief is such that we've essentially passed the test. To that end, the world, even the universe, *must* appear as so not to give anything away about the potential of a divine origin. We can have a hunch, a belief, a gut feeling, but nothing definite for most of us for most of our lives.

But once we are able to understand things in ways that open us up to communication with God, we can begin to receive those communications which then serve as an indication that if the small things we are able to experience are true, then the larger things we are promised are also true. Even then, it is a matter of faith, but it is a faith built upon a loving, friendly relationship.

God is not necessary to include in equations to explain how the universe operates. A scientist can do his job with or without a belief in God. Both can look at their work and the one can nod to himself, "Ah, another example of God's hand!" and his partner can look at the same work and shrug to himself, "Yet again, I see no god here."

[Typhon]

Faith = the fancy way of saying, "I don't have any proof, so you're just going to have to believe me."

[Billy Underdog]

Faith = the fancy way of saying, "I don't have any proof, so you're just going to have to believe me."

This = when people misunderstand these concepts due to the miseducation of organized religion.

[Zzzptm]

Faith = the fancy way of saying, "I don't have any proof, so you're just going to have to believe me."

Love works pretty much the same way. I had no way of proving to my wife 31 years ago that we'd still be married and in love 31 years later, but here we are. We have faith that we will continue on together, although we have zero proof of what the future holds for us.

[Typhon]

Faith = the fancy way of saying, "I don't have any proof, so you're just going to have to believe me."

Love works pretty much the same way. I had no way of proving to my wife 31 years ago that we'd still be married and in love 31 years later, but here we are. We have faith that we will continue on together, although we have zero proof of what the future holds for us.

Glad to know you agree with my equation.

[Sicko FanAtic]

Faith = the fancy way of saying, "I don't have any proof, so you're just going to have to believe me."

Love works pretty much the same way. I had no way of proving to my wife 31 years ago that we'd still be married and in love 31 years later, but here we are. We have faith that we will continue on together, although we have zero proof of what the future holds for us.

Glad to know you agree with my equation.

I do think there's another kind of faith. For example, I can't cite every bit of evidence that supports evolution, but it's been explained to me before, and I trust in the scientific method and peer review and so on, so I have faith the the facts overwhelmingly support evolution, without actually "knowing" all the facts. Hence faith!

I do think love is different. Somebody's actions are evidence of love ( unless the person is just a manipulative psychopath).

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[Typhon]

^^^^^^
True, but how much faith do you really need when the conclusion is backed by evidence and facts which you can comprehend.  The use of the word faith when talking about religion is more of a blind faith.  That's the type I was referring to in my equation.

[Sicko FanAtic]

^^^^^^
True, but how much faith do you really need when the conclusion is backed by evidence and facts which you can comprehend.  The use of the word faith when talking about religion is more of a blind faith.  That's the type I was referring to in my equation.

Absolutely. I think that the argument from faith is kind of a "bad faith" argument though, generally. There is evidence that the majority of religious use: the Bible, personal revelation, synchronicity, irreducible complexity, anthropic principle, god of the gaps, etc. To me, those all seem like shoddy evidence, but evidence nonetheless. The faith argument only comes up when that evidence is brought into question, as a means of evading the discussion.

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[Zzzptm]

^^^^^^
True, but how much faith do you really need when the conclusion is backed by evidence and facts which you can comprehend.  The use of the word faith when talking about religion is more of a blind faith.  That's the type I was referring to in my equation.

I don't think so about religion being a blind faith. And if there are evidences and facts at hand, then basing a view on those evidences and facts involves reason and logic. Something like, "I see lots of cars parked out front, saw that my wife used our credit card to make a purchase at a cake store, and today is my birthday. Pretty sure there's a party for me about to go down." That's not faith, that's a reasonable conclusion.

Whereas, faith is on on the lines of hearing someone say that God exists, would I like to believe in God? And maybe all I have to go with that statement is a feeling that what is said is correct, even though I have no evidence to go with that. Maybe evidences follow later on, but the initial decision is based on a feeling, not a fact. That would be faith.

[Typhon]

^^^^^^
I've never seen any evidences or facts that indicate there exists a god.

[Typhon]

One of the biggest problems I have with this subject is that when a nutty concept is believed by a large number of people, then the nutty concept becomes legitimized.

And that a large number adhere to Scientology doesn't legitamize it.

The major religions have been around for centuries while Scientology a few decades.  Give it some time.

[Zzzptm]

^^^^^^
I've never seen any evidences or facts that indicate there exists a god.

Which would explain your stance on the existence of said god.

The question for me, a believer, is whether or not that freaks me out, causes me to become angry, want to desperately try to make you see...

... or to live and let live. If I can do the latter and none of the former, I have a maturity about my faith that allows others the freedom to believe or not believe as they see fit, which is precisely the freedom I want for myself. "Do to others as you would have them do to you" seems to be a consistent refrain across cultures, faiths, humanitarian movements, and the like. When it is heeded, we all benefit and live in peace.