Why?

[Billy Underdog]

I HATE Nazis and skinheads - just sayin

A bit of an oxymoron, considering the who the original Skinheads were: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinhead

[Sabbabbath]

Yeah, I considered to mention that not all skinheads are Nazis, but I wanted to go to bed. Might depend on the country too: in Germany, the majority of Skinheads are Nazis, many of the others are at least close. But yes, I have seen some leftist ones too. 

[Charger]

Let's get our terms right here too...

There haven't been Nazis since the party was dissolved in 1945. So unless there is there is some zombie thing going on that I am not aware of (other than killing nazi zombies in WW2) the term used should be NEO-Nazi.

[Sabbabbath]

Women tend to be long winded, Billy.     

[Sabbabbath]

Let's get our terms right here too...

There haven't been Nazis since the party was dissolved in 1945. So unless there is there is some zombie thing going on that I am not aware of (other than killing nazi zombies in WW2) the term used should be NEO-Nazi.

I disagree. The term "Nazi" was never exclusively used for those who were formally members of the NSDAP. National Socialism is an ideology and a practice, CONNECTED to the NSDAP as a party, but not reducible to it. E.g. people who were Nazis when the NSDAP was dissolved, obviously didn't automatically stop being Nazis just because it was dissolved. And there have always been adherers of National Socialist ideology and practice who weren't party members. I don't mind at all if you prefer to use "Neo-Nazi", but for me "Nazi" works well.

[Billy Underdog]

Yeah, I considered to mention that not all skinheads are Nazis, but I wanted to go to bed. Might depend on the country too: in Germany, the majority of Skinheads are Nazis, many of the others are at least close. But yes, I have seen some leftist ones too. 

My point was that skinheads was originally apolitical, inspired by Jamaican "Rude Boys". It was pretty much just a way of dressing and identifying with the working class. The notion of racist skinheads came later...

Let's get our terms right here too...

There haven't been Nazis since the party was dissolved in 1945. So unless there is there is some zombie thing going on that I am not aware of (other than killing nazi zombies in WW2) the term used should be NEO-Nazi.

Well, depends how you choose to look at it. There were Nazis who were part of the Nazi party who kept the ideology, some (though very few) still alive today. Also some of these peoples children grew up with and inherited the ideology, i think it's right to call them Nazis too.
But people who've been born after the war, esp. those who were young in the 70's/80's when this way of thinking grew again, that's what is a neo-Nazi.
There are current far right wing politicians right now, like Geert Wilders, Marie Le Pen and those people in AFD who doesn't call themselves any of these terms, but to me it would be more correct to call them Nazis than neo-Nazis, despite not having any connection to the NSDAP. A neo-Nazi allude more to young violent racist people, what we now usually call skinheads. The people i mentioned are (somewhat) legit politicians, which to me allude more to being an actual Nazi. So i both agree and disagree with your point of view there...

[Charger]

Well, depends how you choose to look at it. There were Nazis who were part of the Nazi party who kept the ideology, some (though very few) still alive today. Also some of these peoples children grew up with and inherited the ideology, i think it's right to call them Nazis too.
But people who've been born after the war, esp. those who were young in the 70's/80's when this way of thinking grew again, that's what is a neo-Nazi.
There are current far right wing politicians right now, like Geert Wilders, Marie Le Pen and those people in AFD who doesn't call themselves any of these terms, but to me it would be more correct to call them Nazis than neo-Nazis, despite not having any connection to the NSDAP. A neo-Nazi allude more to young violent racist people, what we now usually call skinheads. The people i mentioned are (somewhat) legit politicians, which to me allude more to being an actual Nazi. So i both agree and disagree with your point of view there...

Yes the point is valid with those original nazi party members who are still alive, but that is a very small number and how many of those actually continued with the party line after it was dissolved is anyones guess...

Calling someone like Marie Le Pen a nazi though is rediculous as she shares very little in common with nazi ideology anyways. Not everyone who is a nationalist isn't automatically a (neo)-nazi you know... As far as I know she doesn't advocate jew labor/enslavement camps for one, nor does she even think that white people are a supreme race (or what the stupid shit nazis called themselves) or anything of the sort...But honestly I don't know too much about her anyways...just what I've seen on the news.

But anyways...if you were a member of the nazi party (or lived according to the nazi ideology at the time) you were a nazi. If you adopted the nazi ideology later you are a neo-nazi...that's the way I see it. Basically though when the nazi party was dissolved so was the nazi ideology...ofcourse that did not happen in absolute but basically that is the way it went.

[Billy Underdog]

Calling someone like Marie Le Pen a nazi though is rediculous as she shares very little in common with nazi ideology anyways. Not everyone who is a nationalist isn't automatically a (neo)-nazi you know... As far as I know she doesn't advocate jew labor/enslavement camps for one, nor does she even think that white people are a supreme race (or what the stupid shit nazis called themselves) or anything of the sort...

She's ofcourse "smart" enough to not say it out loud, but read between the lines. AFD do say it more clarely, though...

But honestly I don't know too much about her anyways...just what I've seen on the news.

Exactly

But anyways...if you were a member of the nazi party (or lived according to the nazi ideology at the time) you were a nazi. If you adopted the nazi ideology later you are a neo-nazi...that's the way I see it. Basically though when the nazi party was dissolved so was the nazi ideology...ofcourse that did not happen in absolute but basically that is the way it went.

Now you're contradicting yourself. Do neo-Nazis have Nazi ideology or not?

[Charger]

But honestly I don't know too much about her anyways...just what I've seen on the news.

Exactly

And what you know her personally so you exactly what her news are?

But anyways...if you were a member of the nazi party (or lived according to the nazi ideology at the time) you were a nazi. If you adopted the nazi ideology later you are a neo-nazi...that's the way I see it. Basically though when the nazi party was dissolved so was the nazi ideology...ofcourse that did not happen in absolute but basically that is the way it went.

Now you're contradicting yourself. Do neo-Nazis have Nazi ideology or not?

How am I contradicting myself here? Don't understand... Neo-Nazis have nazi ideology ofcourse they do, but they obviously weren't around during the Nazi-era so that's why they are Neo-Nazis...I think I explained myself pretty clearly there...?

[Sabbabbath]

But anyways...if you were a member of the nazi party (or lived according to the nazi ideology at the time) you were a nazi. If you adopted the nazi ideology later you are a neo-nazi...that's the way I see it.

You didn't respond to my point that even in the "Third Reich" not all Nazis were members of the NSDAP. Nazism was a movement defined by ideology and practice. See Wikipedia:

National Socialism (German: Nationalsozialismus), more commonly known as Nazism (/ˈnɑːtsi.ɪzəm, ˈnæt-/), is the ideology and practices associated with the 20th-century German Nazi Party in Nazi Germany and of other far-right groups.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi

So what is Nazism? An ideology and practices, associated with (not reducible to) the NDSAP and of other far-right groups. So Nazism is NOT identical to some party membership.

Basically though when the nazi party was dissolved so was the nazi ideology...ofcourse that did not happen in absolute but basically that is the way it went.

Sorry, but that's just plain wrong. A huge pile of historical evidence shows that the Nazi ideology did NOT AT ALL dissolve in 1945. I don't want to start history lessons here; but today, even representatives of the conservative parties in Germany acknowledge that a lot of the old Nazis were never punished, and further crimes happened, because Nazi judges, professors, politicians, entrepreneurs etc. came back into their old offices or got new influential posts, many Nazi laws weren't abolished, and Nazi ideology was alive and well, although of course in some respects suppressed by taboos and the power of the Allies. That was one of the main political issues of the 1968 political movement in Germany and subsequent political movements. Of course, an ideology that many people really believe in, and practice, does not vanish just because a war is lost. Millions of people had been socialised into Nazi thought and practice. It takes serious and long-term societal efforts to change something like that. And nowadays it is very well known in Germany that such efforts weren't really started to make before 1968.

[Charger]

Sorry missed your reply completely there...

Well this is something where our views differ a bit...

I explained my views quite clearly there already. I was ofcourse talking about the official nazi ideology there, you seems to mix it into what went on with people's heads which ofcourse was not what I meant.

The point I was making, there is a difference between nazis and neo-nazis...and the difference is nazis do not exist anymore.

[Billy Underdog]

And what you know her personally so you exactly what her news are?

Yup, had a drink with her yesterday.. No, it's rather that i see the whole European political climate at the moment are pretty much the same as in the 30's, so i'm, as said, able to read (or listen) between the lines. It's pretty obvious if you just wanna give it a thorough thought.

If you adopted the nazi ideology later you are a neo-nazi

Basically though when the nazi party was dissolved so was the nazi ideology.

And there's the contradiction...

[Billy Underdog]

and the difference is nazis do not exist anymore.

Exept that Hitler & co is still alive and well in Argentine and Paraguay... 

[Sabbabbath]

Sorry missed your reply completely there...

Well this is something where our views differ a bit...

I explained my views quite clearly there already. I was ofcourse talking about the official nazi ideology there, you seems to mix it into what went on with people's heads which ofcourse was not what I meant.

The point I was making, there is a difference between nazis and neo-nazis...and the difference is nazis do not exist anymore.

Ideology is a comprehensive set of normative beliefs, conscious and unconscious ideas, that an individual, group or society has.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology
Ideology IS by definition something going on with people's heads (and hearts). It is definitely not identical to e.g. written documents of official parties or anything like that, though it can of course be strengthened and, to an extent, regulated by such documents.

Even if you do equate "Nazi ideology" to "what NSDAP documents were saying" (which is not the usual thing of defining it, as I pointed out), much of that was in fact still alive and well after 1945, and is to some extent alive in our days. As I said, even many Nazi laws (including the one about homosexuality which was only abolished in 1995) remained, and old Nazi judges were convicting people according to those laws. Many AFD (now-popular Nazi, or if you prefer right-wing, party in the German parliament) officials use original Nazi vocabulary all the time.

You seem to assume that Nazi ideology could not change. And I do agree that there is a big difference between the original Nazi movement for which had antisemitism was essential, and those of the current movements which are more focused on racism against Muslims. But first, Billy is right to point out that some of them are simply being careful because antisemitism (though still being pretty popular in Europe and elsewhere, as many representative studies show) isn't 100% politically opportune ATM. And second, most of the more Muslim-focused right-wing movements in Europe have close ties to more old-style antisemitic Nazis (or Neo-Nazis, if you prefer that), and many have shifted back and forth between focusing one resentment or the other in the past. The French Front National is a good example in that it has been shifting back and forth for decades.

We shouldn't overlook the continuities though. E.g. Anti-Romanyism was an essential aspect of original Nazi ideology and practice, and still is an essential aspect of (Neo-)Nazi ideology and practice today in many countries. There is much more, but this comment is already much too long...

[Sabbabbath]

and the difference is nazis do not exist anymore.

Exept that Hitler & co is still alive and well in Argentine and Paraguay... 

Actually, some Nazi criminals, though of course extremely old, are still alive:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Most_Wanted_Nazi_War_Criminals_according_to_the_Simon_Wiesenthal_Center