Why?

[Sabbabbath]

As for Islamist terrorists and their leaders, many of them are in fact clerical fascists. There are significant similarities to (many) European Nazis in terms of antisemitism, misogyny, racism, and a deep-seated hate against liberalism and equality. 

An anti semitic muslim, that's just too laughable. Semitic is the name for a branch of the Afroasian languages, in witch Arabic is part of. Using semitic to refer to culture or ethnicity are obsolete to any serious scolar.
So an anti semitic muslim is essentially an anti Arabic muslim. Go figure...
Just goes to show that these people have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. The correct term would've been anti Hebrew or anti Jewish.

Logically you are correct. But language is not a matter of pure logic, it is mostly one of convention and history. The term "antisemitism" was established when hate agains Jews began to be based on assumptions about biological race, rather than religion alone. The term was used by both antisemites and critics of antisemitism. Some of the Jew-haters who called themselves antisemites claimed explicitly that the Jews were the worst of all "Semites" and even hated by other "Semites" (e.g. Arabs). Nowadays, the term "Semites" is hardly used scientifically outside linguistics (where it doesn't refer to biological "race" but to a language family); in much of the humanities, it is considered misleading and problematic at best. The term "antisemitism" has survived though. Since "antijudaism" tends to refer to religious-based hate rather than racist-based hate against Jews, it doesn't really do the job; and racism against Arab people is in several respects very different from the hate against Jews. The anti-Jewish hate in Islam has traditionally, of course, been religious-based; nowadays, however, it is inspired by racist Nazi ideology in many respects and often includes the typical neonazi combination of Holocaust-denial and Holocaust-celebration.

I agree with you the term "antisemtism" is far from perfect; we need a better one, but "anti Hebrew" or "anti Jewish" don't do the job, because they are too limited to religious-based hate. To be sure, this is a VERY old debate, scientists and activists have been discussing it at least since WW2 (and probably longer).

[Billy Underdog]

I agree with you the term "antisemtism" is far from perfect; we need a better one, but "anti Hebrew" or "anti Jewish" don't do the job, because they are too limited to religious-based hate.

Hebrew is connected to an ethnicity (as well as a language), but not a religion, hence it would work for racism (which in itself is a stupid term, referring to this thread on "the other place": https://www.black-sabbath.com/vb/showthread.php?45202-Race-or-breed-Where-did-the-English-language-go-wrong).

Other than that you're basically just repeating what i just said, but in a way more complicated way.

And, yes, this discussion goes back to the 19th century atleast, even a bit longer.

[Sabbabbath]

I agree with you the term "antisemtism" is far from perfect; we need a better one, but "anti Hebrew" or "anti Jewish" don't do the job, because they are too limited to religious-based hate.

Hebrew is connected to an ethnicity (as well as a language), but not a religion, hence it would work for racism (which in itself is a stupid term, referring to this thread on "the other place": https://www.black-sabbath.com/vb/showthread.php?45202-Race-or-breed-Where-did-the-English-language-go-wrong).

Other than that you're basically just repeating what i just said, but in a way more complicated way.

And, yes, this discussion goes back to the 19th century atleast, even a bit longer.

No, I haven't just repeated what you said. If you think that, you haven't read my post carefully. I have tried to explain why it is that the term "antisemitism" is still used. You have not tried to explain anything like that. And "ethnicity" is a cultural category, not a biological (or pseudo-biological) category like race, so it doesn't capture the biologist/racist character of modern antisemitism.

I think you are jumping the gun much too quickly here when claiming that "these people" (who?) have no idea what you're talking about. Research in antisemitism and racism is a HUGE and complex scientific field. Like in any other scientific field, a lot can be criticised about it. But simply claiming that the people working there all have "no idea" is, frankly, absurd and unjust.

I thought you are (like me) worried about the global uprising of authoritarian ideology and fascist movements. If you are, maybe you should think twice before you throw away a century of research into the trash can because you dislike some of the terms they use. How about a little solidarity?

[Billy Underdog]

I know why the term is still used, but i didn't see any point in going on about it as it was beside my point.

With "these people having no idea what they are talking about" i only meant muslims who consider themselves anti semitic, not the scientific community who use these terms more correctly.

I disagree that ethnicity isn't to do with biology, though. There's a reason we use terms like "ethnic Norwegian" to differentiate a white Norwegian from a Norwegian born dark skinned person who's also just as much culturally Norwegian as a white one.

We're really on the same page here, it's just that i prefer to make my points in short sentences instead of writing long articles. It seems like you misunderstood a bit what i was trying to say there.
Ofcourse i don't wanna throw away good, longtime research, in fact i'd like it to be enhanced.

P&L, sister 

[Zzzptm]

Regarding the illogic of language... as an IT security person, I hate the prefix "cyber-" as it is applied liberally by non-professionals to anything that deals with computers, networking, and programming. As it is, though, I have to use the term if I want to be understood by anyone else... so... meh.

As for ridiculing Nazism, I'm all on board with that. If it is ludicrous, it is less likely to be adopted by a faction sufficiently large to take control of a nation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHnyQXyuTGY

[Typhon]

We're really on the same page here, it's just that i prefer to make my points in short sentences instead of writing long articles.

Women tend to be long winded, Billy.     

[Billy Underdog]

Women tend to be long winded, Billy.     

Ooooohhh, watch out for the feminist wrath now...

[Zzzptm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdJpDxlI8H0

[Billy Underdog]

BURMA!!! (i panicked)

[Sabbabbath]

I know why the term is still used, but i didn't see any point in going on about it as it was beside my point.

With "these people having no idea what they are talking about" i only meant muslims who consider themselves anti semitic, not the scientific community who use these terms more correctly.

I disagree that ethnicity isn't to do with biology, though. There's a reason we use terms like "ethnic Norwegian" to differentiate a white Norwegian from a Norwegian born dark skinned person who's also just as much culturally Norwegian as a white one.

We're really on the same page here, it's just that i prefer to make my points in short sentences instead of writing long articles. It seems like you misunderstood a bit what i was trying to say there.
Ofcourse i don't wanna throw away good, longtime research, in fact i'd like it to be enhanced.

P&L, sister 

OK, Thanks for clarifying. I was really puzzled by your use of "these people", because when I mentioned that Islamist terrorists are usually antisemites, I didn't mean to say that they are actually CALLING themselves antisemites - they just hate Jews and believe that the Jews are responsible for most evil in the world etc. Obviously, most (though not all) antisemites, racists and sexists nowadays claim NOT to be  antisemites, racists and sexists respectively.

As for "ethnicity", that's an interesting question. First time I heard the word "ethnicity" was in the context of anthropology where, as far as I remember, it didn't refer to biology at all. So I just searched the internet for "anthropological dictionary", and I found this:
http://www.anthrobase.com/Dic/eng/
which gives us the following definition of "ethnicity" and hilariously mentions being "Norwegian" as an example:

A term for group identity that came into use in anthropology in the 1950's, primarily to describe aspects of the processes of modernization going on in Africa (see the Manchester School). The concept received its modern form after Barth's anthology Ethnic Groups and Boundaries (1969). Barth here describes ethnicity as a contrastive category. I am "Norwegian" because I see myself (and / or: I am seen) in contrast to e.g. Saami or Swedes. Ethnicity is thus a concept describing a particular way of drawing boundaries between groups, in contrast to culture, which is the meaningful "contents", the "life-world" which the boundaries contain.

So, according to this definition, ethnicity is the way the members of a group are identifying as a group, and/or are identified by others as a group. No direct connection to biology, but an indirect one, if the people who use the term believe that the group identity is at least partly due defined by its ancestry - which would explain why someone might use "ethnic Norwegian" to refer to a white Norwegian with a long Norwegian ancestry in contrast to a black Norwegian who probably has different ancestry.

Outside of anthropology, https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/ethnicity gave me this definition for "ethnicity":

The fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition.

However, https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ethnicity tells me that "ethnicity" is

a large group of people who have the same national, racial, or cultural origins, or the state of belonging to such a group

and the following example is given:

the interrelationship between gender, ethnicity, and class

In contrast to the first two definitions, this one mentions "racial origin" as one of possible defining characteristics. And I think the example they give explains how that use came about: many people, in German even more than in English, don't want to use the word "race" (in German: "Rasse") anymore, and some simply replace it by "ethnicity". Thus, some of the social researchers who were previously investigating gender, race, and class, are now talking about gender, ethnicity, and class instead. This is certainly well-intended, but pretty misleading I think, because ethnicity differs from race not only by its moral content, but also substantively. E.g. when I was in Mexico once, I learnt that about 60 or more indigenous groups or ethnicities exist in Mexico, each with their own language and cultural traditions; but one would hardly ever have called those groups "races". Personally I think that in many (probably not all) cases, "color" is a better replacement, because it does refer to the bodily attribute we are usually taking as the primary indicator of race, but unlike race, it doesn't carry the same baggage of assumptions about deep differences in psychology, intelligence, temparament etc.

Curiously, I also found an entry on "ethnic" in an etymological dictionary that gives "pagan" as one of the meanings of "ethnicity":
https://www.etymonline.com/word/ethnic?ref=etymonline_crossreference
I thought you might like this. 

Women tend to be long winded, Billy.     

I am. No doubt about it - just look at this comment. I talk more than most women and many men I know. Women? That's of course an old cliché. I did look for studies a little, there are some, and their results are very mixed: some conclude women talk more, some conclude men talk more, some conclude that women and men both talk pretty much the same. The differences of results are likely explained by differences regarding the type of situation or societal space the studies focused on, the level of education of the people that were studied, the quantitative proportions of women vs. men within the groups that were studied etc.
E.g. in my experience, in political groups, usually men tend to talk much more than women during political discussions, men tend to interrupt women more then men, and women interrupt men much less frequently then men interrupt women. (That's why groups that are concerned about gender inequalities often use moderation in discussions.) But of course there are usually also a few very quiet men, and sometimes a woman like me roughs up the statistics. 

Best,
Linda

[Billy Underdog]

OK, Thanks for clarifying. I was really puzzled by your use of "these people", because when I mentioned that Islamist terrorists are usually antisemites, I didn't mean to say that they are actually CALLING themselves antisemites - they just hate Jews and believe that the Jews are responsible for most evil in the world etc.

Too numbscull right now to relate or even bother to read through the whole post right now, but i will, and come back with whatever reply i conclude out of it. But i just gotta say that Norwegian Islamists who recruit foreign fighters for ISIL, esp. Ubaydullah Hussain and his group The Prophet's Ummah actually call themselves anti semites.
(And i'd love to once do a project called The Prophet's Ummagumma...  )

[Zzzptm]

Long-windedness is a virtue in my book.

[Sabbabbath]

Too numbscull right now to relate or even bother to read through the whole post right now, but i will, and come back with whatever reply i conclude out of it. But i just gotta say that Norwegian Islamists who recruit foreign fighters for ISIL, esp. Ubaydullah Hussain and his group The Prophet's Ummah actually call themselves anti semites.
(And i'd love to once do a project called The Prophet's Ummagumma...  )

That's indeed a hilarious bit of information, thanks for that! I did consider mentioning in my post that I can totally imagine that SOME Muslims do call themselves antisemites, but my post was already much too long. With 7.5 Billions of people, many of which are crazy as shit, we get all possible kinds of oddities - including some immigrants being members of parties that are very hostile against immigrants, women defending patriarchy, white people who say they "identify" as black people, and people of Arab origin who call themselves antisemites.
"The Prophet's Ummagumma" is a phantastic band name! Would be a great name for a band consisting of people who are of Arab origin and strongly opposed to political Islam.

As for reading my post, well, take your time. Main reason why I am often writing so much is that I am so passionate about many topics. Actually I was already wondering about the issue of the definition of "ethnicity" many years ago, I just never bothered to look it up. So your comment was a good opportunity. So even if nobody ever replies, I have learnt something. 

Long-windedness is a virtue in my book.

Thank you very much - also for the great Janis gif. Nice to see you're enjoying what you do. 

[Thelemech]

  I HATE Nazis and skinheads - just sayin

[Sabbabbath]

I HATE Nazis and skinheads - just sayin

Amen to that!