The Community
General Category => Matters of Life and The Universe => Topic started by: Billy Underdog on March 13, 2018, 05:25:16 PM
-
A general random question-thread, sometimes even without an answer needed...
The Nazi "protection squadron" Schutzstaffel was shortened to SS. Why not ß, which is the German letter for double s (aka. eszett)..?
-
The Nazi "protection squadron" Schutzstaffel was shortened to SS. Why not ß, which is the German letter for double s..?
Because then the logo looked cool with the double lightning S's... :D
But most likely because the double S letter is used inside a word with double s, not an acronym or an abbreviation which was the case here.
-
The Nazi "protection squadron" Schutzstaffel was shortened to SS. Why not ß, which is the German letter for double s..?
Because then the logo looked cool with the double lightning S's... :D
But most likely because the double S letter is used inside a word with double s, not an acronym or an abbreviation which was the case here.
Actually there are many German words with double-s, e.g. "Wasser" = water, or (importantly for the Nazis) "Rasse" = race. But compare: "Spaß" = fun. Whether you use "ss" or "ß" in a word depends on how the vowel before the ss/ß is pronounced. Thus, "ß" is not an abbreviation for "ss", and, as Charger already mentioned, never used as such. And yes, I am sure the Nazis wanted the abbreviation to look martial.
-
Great sketch comes to mind... "Are we the baddies?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLJUocaDYw0
-
Actually there are many German words with double-s, e.g. "Wasser" = water, or (importantly for the Nazis) "Rasse" = race. But compare: "Spaß" = fun. Whether you use "ss" or "ß" in a word depends on how the vowel before the ss/ß is pronounced. Thus, "ß" is not an abbreviation for "ss", and, as Charger already mentioned, never used as such. And yes, I am sure the Nazis wanted the abbreviation to look martial.
Oh I forgot you were German! :D
Thanks for adding...I'm really not very good in deutsch...my knowlage of the language limits pretty much in car lingo as I have bought few cars from there...
-
Most of my German comes from reading WW2 primary source documents. The rest comes from translating Puhdys lyrics.
-
Most of my German comes from reading WW2 primary source documents. The rest comes from translating Puhdys lyrics.
LOL, I am sure your German is VERY special!
-
Most of my German comes from reading WW2 primary source documents. The rest comes from translating Puhdys lyrics.
LOL, I am sure your German is VERY special!
Given how the Nazis used "special" as a constant euphemism for their brutality, I'd say "sonder-" is an important part of my German vocab.
-
Most of my German comes from reading WW2 primary source documents. The rest comes from translating Puhdys lyrics.
LOL, I am sure your German is VERY special!
Given how the Nazis used "special" as a constant euphemism for their brutality, I'd say "sonder-" is an important part of my German vocab.
Oh yes, the Nazis loved that prefix! It is horrible to see that many terms of the Nazi vocabulary are recently being made more popular again by the AFD, the fascist party that is now in the parliament. And of course that's not a linguistic problem; racist violence has vastly increased at the same time.
-
And of course that's not a linguistic problem; racist violence has vastly increased at the same time.
Which ofcourse is a direct result of the terrorist attacks over Europe. Those two always go hand in hand...
-
And of course that's not a linguistic problem; racist violence has vastly increased at the same time.
Which ofcourse is a direct result of the terrorist attacks over Europe. Those two always go hand in hand...
"Indirect" would be more correct than "direct", but I get your point. Well, I don't know about your country, but in Germany, Nazis are currently not talking THAT much about terrorism. More prominent are their claims that refugees are too expensive, refugee men rape German women, refugees are simply people who don't belong "here", and the "Deutsches Volk" (or white race) is becoming extinct. But yes, they also mention terrorism, and associate being-a-refugee with being-a-terrorist, which is pretty ironic given that a huge amount of refugees have been victims of terrorism themselves.
-
Not to mention that alot of terrorists are second and third generation "immigrants" disconected from their heritage, but feel a need to fight for a cause they don't fully grasp the reality of. Very much the same way of thinking as Nazis, really.
You keep saying guns aren't the problem, people are. Well, let's stop people from getting guns then. Problem solved...
-
German nationalism is such a complicated mess... I just finished writing up a bit about how the German-Austrian Republic wanted to join with Germany prior to the Treaties of Versailles and Saint-Germain blocked those moves. Had they been allowed to join, then Austria, South Tyrol, Sudetnland, and German-majority parts of Bohemia and Moravia that were not formally associated with Czechoslovakia immediately after WW1 would have joined with Germany.
I wonder if Germany would have been as revanchist as it was historically if those areas had been allowed to join with the whole German state.
-
Yes, German nationalism is definitely one of the craziest and most evil beasts ever to populate the earth. I think it was a huge mistake to allow Germany to rearm after WW1.
As for Islamist terrorists and their leaders, many of them are in fact clerical fascists. There are significant similarities to (many) European Nazis in terms of antisemitism, misogyny, racism, and a deep-seated hate against liberalism and equality.
-
As for Islamist terrorists and their leaders, many of them are in fact clerical fascists. There are significant similarities to (many) European Nazis in terms of antisemitism, misogyny, racism, and a deep-seated hate against liberalism and equality.
An anti semitic muslim, that's just too laughable. Semitic is the name for a branch of the Afroasian languages, in witch Arabic is part of. Using semitic to refer to culture or ethnicity are obsolete to any serious scolar.
So an anti semitic muslim is essentially an anti Arabic muslim. Go figure...
Just goes to show that these people have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. The correct term would've been anti Hebrew or anti Jewish.
-
As for Islamist terrorists and their leaders, many of them are in fact clerical fascists. There are significant similarities to (many) European Nazis in terms of antisemitism, misogyny, racism, and a deep-seated hate against liberalism and equality.
An anti semitic muslim, that's just too laughable. Semitic is the name for a branch of the Afroasian languages, in witch Arabic is part of. Using semitic to refer to culture or ethnicity are obsolete to any serious scolar.
So an anti semitic muslim is essentially an anti Arabic muslim. Go figure...
Just goes to show that these people have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. The correct term would've been anti Hebrew or anti Jewish.
Logically you are correct. But language is not a matter of pure logic, it is mostly one of convention and history. The term "antisemitism" was established when hate agains Jews began to be based on assumptions about biological race, rather than religion alone. The term was used by both antisemites and critics of antisemitism. Some of the Jew-haters who called themselves antisemites claimed explicitly that the Jews were the worst of all "Semites" and even hated by other "Semites" (e.g. Arabs). Nowadays, the term "Semites" is hardly used scientifically outside linguistics (where it doesn't refer to biological "race" but to a language family); in much of the humanities, it is considered misleading and problematic at best. The term "antisemitism" has survived though. Since "antijudaism" tends to refer to religious-based hate rather than racist-based hate against Jews, it doesn't really do the job; and racism against Arab people is in several respects very different from the hate against Jews. The anti-Jewish hate in Islam has traditionally, of course, been religious-based; nowadays, however, it is inspired by racist Nazi ideology in many respects and often includes the typical neonazi combination of Holocaust-denial and Holocaust-celebration.
I agree with you the term "antisemtism" is far from perfect; we need a better one, but "anti Hebrew" or "anti Jewish" don't do the job, because they are too limited to religious-based hate. To be sure, this is a VERY old debate, scientists and activists have been discussing it at least since WW2 (and probably longer).
-
I agree with you the term "antisemtism" is far from perfect; we need a better one, but "anti Hebrew" or "anti Jewish" don't do the job, because they are too limited to religious-based hate.
Hebrew is connected to an ethnicity (as well as a language), but not a religion, hence it would work for racism (which in itself is a stupid term, referring to this thread on "the other place": https://www.black-sabbath.com/vb/showthread.php?45202-Race-or-breed-Where-did-the-English-language-go-wrong).
Other than that you're basically just repeating what i just said, but in a way more complicated way.
And, yes, this discussion goes back to the 19th century atleast, even a bit longer.
-
I agree with you the term "antisemtism" is far from perfect; we need a better one, but "anti Hebrew" or "anti Jewish" don't do the job, because they are too limited to religious-based hate.
Hebrew is connected to an ethnicity (as well as a language), but not a religion, hence it would work for racism (which in itself is a stupid term, referring to this thread on "the other place": https://www.black-sabbath.com/vb/showthread.php?45202-Race-or-breed-Where-did-the-English-language-go-wrong).
Other than that you're basically just repeating what i just said, but in a way more complicated way.
And, yes, this discussion goes back to the 19th century atleast, even a bit longer.
No, I haven't just repeated what you said. If you think that, you haven't read my post carefully. I have tried to explain why it is that the term "antisemitism" is still used. You have not tried to explain anything like that. And "ethnicity" is a cultural category, not a biological (or pseudo-biological) category like race, so it doesn't capture the biologist/racist character of modern antisemitism.
I think you are jumping the gun much too quickly here when claiming that "these people" (who?) have no idea what you're talking about. Research in antisemitism and racism is a HUGE and complex scientific field. Like in any other scientific field, a lot can be criticised about it. But simply claiming that the people working there all have "no idea" is, frankly, absurd and unjust.
I thought you are (like me) worried about the global uprising of authoritarian ideology and fascist movements. If you are, maybe you should think twice before you throw away a century of research into the trash can because you dislike some of the terms they use. How about a little solidarity?
-
I know why the term is still used, but i didn't see any point in going on about it as it was beside my point.
With "these people having no idea what they are talking about" i only meant muslims who consider themselves anti semitic, not the scientific community who use these terms more correctly.
I disagree that ethnicity isn't to do with biology, though. There's a reason we use terms like "ethnic Norwegian" to differentiate a white Norwegian from a Norwegian born dark skinned person who's also just as much culturally Norwegian as a white one.
We're really on the same page here, it's just that i prefer to make my points in short sentences instead of writing long articles. It seems like you misunderstood a bit what i was trying to say there.
Ofcourse i don't wanna throw away good, longtime research, in fact i'd like it to be enhanced.
P&L, sister :-*
-
Regarding the illogic of language... as an IT security person, I hate the prefix "cyber-" as it is applied liberally by non-professionals to anything that deals with computers, networking, and programming. As it is, though, I have to use the term if I want to be understood by anyone else... so... meh.
As for ridiculing Nazism, I'm all on board with that. If it is ludicrous, it is less likely to be adopted by a faction sufficiently large to take control of a nation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHnyQXyuTGY
-
We're really on the same page here, it's just that i prefer to make my points in short sentences instead of writing long articles.
Women tend to be long winded, Billy. :))
-
Women tend to be long winded, Billy. :))
Ooooohhh, watch out for the feminist wrath now... :P
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdJpDxlI8H0
-
BURMA!!! (i panicked)
-
I know why the term is still used, but i didn't see any point in going on about it as it was beside my point.
With "these people having no idea what they are talking about" i only meant muslims who consider themselves anti semitic, not the scientific community who use these terms more correctly.
I disagree that ethnicity isn't to do with biology, though. There's a reason we use terms like "ethnic Norwegian" to differentiate a white Norwegian from a Norwegian born dark skinned person who's also just as much culturally Norwegian as a white one.
We're really on the same page here, it's just that i prefer to make my points in short sentences instead of writing long articles. It seems like you misunderstood a bit what i was trying to say there.
Ofcourse i don't wanna throw away good, longtime research, in fact i'd like it to be enhanced.
P&L, sister :-*
OK, Thanks for clarifying. I was really puzzled by your use of "these people", because when I mentioned that Islamist terrorists are usually antisemites, I didn't mean to say that they are actually CALLING themselves antisemites - they just hate Jews and believe that the Jews are responsible for most evil in the world etc. Obviously, most (though not all) antisemites, racists and sexists nowadays claim NOT to be antisemites, racists and sexists respectively.
As for "ethnicity", that's an interesting question. First time I heard the word "ethnicity" was in the context of anthropology where, as far as I remember, it didn't refer to biology at all. So I just searched the internet for "anthropological dictionary", and I found this:
http://www.anthrobase.com/Dic/eng/
which gives us the following definition of "ethnicity" and hilariously mentions being "Norwegian" as an example:
A term for group identity that came into use in anthropology in the 1950's, primarily to describe aspects of the processes of modernization going on in Africa (see the Manchester School). The concept received its modern form after Barth's anthology Ethnic Groups and Boundaries (1969). Barth here describes ethnicity as a contrastive category. I am "Norwegian" because I see myself (and / or: I am seen) in contrast to e.g. Saami or Swedes. Ethnicity is thus a concept describing a particular way of drawing boundaries between groups, in contrast to culture, which is the meaningful "contents", the "life-world" which the boundaries contain.
So, according to this definition, ethnicity is the way the members of a group are identifying as a group, and/or are identified by others as a group. No direct connection to biology, but an indirect one, if the people who use the term believe that the group identity is at least partly due defined by its ancestry - which would explain why someone might use "ethnic Norwegian" to refer to a white Norwegian with a long Norwegian ancestry in contrast to a black Norwegian who probably has different ancestry.
Outside of anthropology, https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/ethnicity gave me this definition for "ethnicity":
The fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition.
However, https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ethnicity tells me that "ethnicity" is
a large group of people who have the same national, racial, or cultural origins, or the state of belonging to such a group
and the following example is given:
the interrelationship between gender, ethnicity, and class
In contrast to the first two definitions, this one mentions "racial origin" as one of possible defining characteristics. And I think the example they give explains how that use came about: many people, in German even more than in English, don't want to use the word "race" (in German: "Rasse") anymore, and some simply replace it by "ethnicity". Thus, some of the social researchers who were previously investigating gender, race, and class, are now talking about gender, ethnicity, and class instead. This is certainly well-intended, but pretty misleading I think, because ethnicity differs from race not only by its moral content, but also substantively. E.g. when I was in Mexico once, I learnt that about 60 or more indigenous groups or ethnicities exist in Mexico, each with their own language and cultural traditions; but one would hardly ever have called those groups "races". Personally I think that in many (probably not all) cases, "color" is a better replacement, because it does refer to the bodily attribute we are usually taking as the primary indicator of race, but unlike race, it doesn't carry the same baggage of assumptions about deep differences in psychology, intelligence, temparament etc.
Curiously, I also found an entry on "ethnic" in an etymological dictionary that gives "pagan" as one of the meanings of "ethnicity":
https://www.etymonline.com/word/ethnic?ref=etymonline_crossreference
I thought you might like this. ;D
Women tend to be long winded, Billy. :))
I am. No doubt about it - just look at this comment. :banana: I talk more than most women and many men I know. Women? That's of course an old cliché. I did look for studies a little, there are some, and their results are very mixed: some conclude women talk more, some conclude men talk more, some conclude that women and men both talk pretty much the same. The differences of results are likely explained by differences regarding the type of situation or societal space the studies focused on, the level of education of the people that were studied, the quantitative proportions of women vs. men within the groups that were studied etc.
E.g. in my experience, in political groups, usually men tend to talk much more than women during political discussions, men tend to interrupt women more then men, and women interrupt men much less frequently then men interrupt women. (That's why groups that are concerned about gender inequalities often use moderation in discussions.) But of course there are usually also a few very quiet men, and sometimes a woman like me roughs up the statistics. :wootwoot:
Best,
Linda
-
OK, Thanks for clarifying. I was really puzzled by your use of "these people", because when I mentioned that Islamist terrorists are usually antisemites, I didn't mean to say that they are actually CALLING themselves antisemites - they just hate Jews and believe that the Jews are responsible for most evil in the world etc.
Too numbscull right now to relate or even bother to read through the whole post right now, but i will, and come back with whatever reply i conclude out of it. But i just gotta say that Norwegian Islamists who recruit foreign fighters for ISIL, esp. Ubaydullah Hussain and his group The Prophet's Ummah actually call themselves anti semites.
(And i'd love to once do a project called The Prophet's Ummagumma... ;D )
-
Long-windedness is a virtue in my book.
:janis:
-
Too numbscull right now to relate or even bother to read through the whole post right now, but i will, and come back with whatever reply i conclude out of it. But i just gotta say that Norwegian Islamists who recruit foreign fighters for ISIL, esp. Ubaydullah Hussain and his group The Prophet's Ummah actually call themselves anti semites.
(And i'd love to once do a project called The Prophet's Ummagumma... ;D )
That's indeed a hilarious bit of information, thanks for that! I did consider mentioning in my post that I can totally imagine that SOME Muslims do call themselves antisemites, but my post was already much too long.::) With 7.5 Billions of people, many of which are crazy as shit, we get all possible kinds of oddities - including some immigrants being members of parties that are very hostile against immigrants, women defending patriarchy, white people who say they "identify" as black people, and people of Arab origin who call themselves antisemites.
"The Prophet's Ummagumma" is a phantastic band name! Would be a great name for a band consisting of people who are of Arab origin and strongly opposed to political Islam.
As for reading my post, well, take your time. Main reason why I am often writing so much is that I am so passionate about many topics. Actually I was already wondering about the issue of the definition of "ethnicity" many years ago, I just never bothered to look it up. So your comment was a good opportunity. So even if nobody ever replies, I have learnt something. :zomg:
Long-windedness is a virtue in my book.
:janis:
Thank you very much - also for the great Janis gif. Nice to see you're enjoying what you do. :partay:
-
:death: I HATE Nazis and skinheads - just sayin :batdance:
-
:death: I HATE Nazis and skinheads - just sayin :batdance:
Amen to that! :rockon:
-
:death: I HATE Nazis and skinheads - just sayin :batdance:
A bit of an oxymoron, considering the who the original Skinheads were: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinhead
-
Yeah, I considered to mention that not all skinheads are Nazis, but I wanted to go to bed.:D Might depend on the country too: in Germany, the majority of Skinheads are Nazis, many of the others are at least close. But yes, I have seen some leftist ones too.
-
Let's get our terms right here too...
There haven't been Nazis since the party was dissolved in 1945. So unless there is there is some zombie thing going on that I am not aware of (other than killing nazi zombies in WW2) the term used should be NEO-Nazi.
-
Women tend to be long winded, Billy. :))
(https://i.imgur.com/YcVaLNh.jpg)
-
Let's get our terms right here too...
There haven't been Nazis since the party was dissolved in 1945. So unless there is there is some zombie thing going on that I am not aware of (other than killing nazi zombies in WW2) the term used should be NEO-Nazi.
I disagree. The term "Nazi" was never exclusively used for those who were formally members of the NSDAP. National Socialism is an ideology and a practice, CONNECTED to the NSDAP as a party, but not reducible to it. E.g. people who were Nazis when the NSDAP was dissolved, obviously didn't automatically stop being Nazis just because it was dissolved. And there have always been adherers of National Socialist ideology and practice who weren't party members. I don't mind at all if you prefer to use "Neo-Nazi", but for me "Nazi" works well.
-
Yeah, I considered to mention that not all skinheads are Nazis, but I wanted to go to bed.:D Might depend on the country too: in Germany, the majority of Skinheads are Nazis, many of the others are at least close. But yes, I have seen some leftist ones too.
My point was that skinheads was originally apolitical, inspired by Jamaican "Rude Boys". It was pretty much just a way of dressing and identifying with the working class. The notion of racist skinheads came later...
Let's get our terms right here too...
There haven't been Nazis since the party was dissolved in 1945. So unless there is there is some zombie thing going on that I am not aware of (other than killing nazi zombies in WW2) the term used should be NEO-Nazi.
Well, depends how you choose to look at it. There were Nazis who were part of the Nazi party who kept the ideology, some (though very few) still alive today. Also some of these peoples children grew up with and inherited the ideology, i think it's right to call them Nazis too.
But people who've been born after the war, esp. those who were young in the 70's/80's when this way of thinking grew again, that's what is a neo-Nazi.
There are current far right wing politicians right now, like Geert Wilders, Marie Le Pen and those people in AFD who doesn't call themselves any of these terms, but to me it would be more correct to call them Nazis than neo-Nazis, despite not having any connection to the NSDAP. A neo-Nazi allude more to young violent racist people, what we now usually call skinheads. The people i mentioned are (somewhat) legit politicians, which to me allude more to being an actual Nazi. So i both agree and disagree with your point of view there...
-
Well, depends how you choose to look at it. There were Nazis who were part of the Nazi party who kept the ideology, some (though very few) still alive today. Also some of these peoples children grew up with and inherited the ideology, i think it's right to call them Nazis too.
But people who've been born after the war, esp. those who were young in the 70's/80's when this way of thinking grew again, that's what is a neo-Nazi.
There are current far right wing politicians right now, like Geert Wilders, Marie Le Pen and those people in AFD who doesn't call themselves any of these terms, but to me it would be more correct to call them Nazis than neo-Nazis, despite not having any connection to the NSDAP. A neo-Nazi allude more to young violent racist people, what we now usually call skinheads. The people i mentioned are (somewhat) legit politicians, which to me allude more to being an actual Nazi. So i both agree and disagree with your point of view there...
Yes the point is valid with those original nazi party members who are still alive, but that is a very small number and how many of those actually continued with the party line after it was dissolved is anyones guess...
Calling someone like Marie Le Pen a nazi though is rediculous as she shares very little in common with nazi ideology anyways. Not everyone who is a nationalist isn't automatically a (neo)-nazi you know... ;) As far as I know she doesn't advocate jew labor/enslavement camps for one, nor does she even think that white people are a supreme race (or what the stupid shit nazis called themselves) or anything of the sort...But honestly I don't know too much about her anyways...just what I've seen on the news.
But anyways...if you were a member of the nazi party (or lived according to the nazi ideology at the time) you were a nazi. If you adopted the nazi ideology later you are a neo-nazi...that's the way I see it. Basically though when the nazi party was dissolved so was the nazi ideology...ofcourse that did not happen in absolute but basically that is the way it went.
-
Calling someone like Marie Le Pen a nazi though is rediculous as she shares very little in common with nazi ideology anyways. Not everyone who is a nationalist isn't automatically a (neo)-nazi you know... ;) As far as I know she doesn't advocate jew labor/enslavement camps for one, nor does she even think that white people are a supreme race (or what the stupid shit nazis called themselves) or anything of the sort...
She's ofcourse "smart" enough to not say it out loud, but read between the lines. AFD do say it more clarely, though...
But honestly I don't know too much about her anyways...just what I've seen on the news.
Exactly
But anyways...if you were a member of the nazi party (or lived according to the nazi ideology at the time) you were a nazi. If you adopted the nazi ideology later you are a neo-nazi...that's the way I see it. Basically though when the nazi party was dissolved so was the nazi ideology...ofcourse that did not happen in absolute but basically that is the way it went.
Now you're contradicting yourself. Do neo-Nazis have Nazi ideology or not?
-
But honestly I don't know too much about her anyways...just what I've seen on the news.
Exactly
And what you know her personally so you exactly what her news are? :D
But anyways...if you were a member of the nazi party (or lived according to the nazi ideology at the time) you were a nazi. If you adopted the nazi ideology later you are a neo-nazi...that's the way I see it. Basically though when the nazi party was dissolved so was the nazi ideology...ofcourse that did not happen in absolute but basically that is the way it went.
Now you're contradicting yourself. Do neo-Nazis have Nazi ideology or not?
How am I contradicting myself here? Don't understand... Neo-Nazis have nazi ideology ofcourse they do, but they obviously weren't around during the Nazi-era so that's why they are Neo-Nazis...I think I explained myself pretty clearly there...?
-
But anyways...if you were a member of the nazi party (or lived according to the nazi ideology at the time) you were a nazi. If you adopted the nazi ideology later you are a neo-nazi...that's the way I see it.
You didn't respond to my point that even in the "Third Reich" not all Nazis were members of the NSDAP. Nazism was a movement defined by ideology and practice. See Wikipedia:
National Socialism (German: Nationalsozialismus), more commonly known as Nazism (/ˈnɑːtsi.ɪzəm, ˈnæt-/), is the ideology and practices associated with the 20th-century German Nazi Party in Nazi Germany and of other far-right groups.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi
So what is Nazism? An ideology and practices, associated with (not reducible to) the NDSAP and of other far-right groups. So Nazism is NOT identical to some party membership.
Basically though when the nazi party was dissolved so was the nazi ideology...ofcourse that did not happen in absolute but basically that is the way it went.
Sorry, but that's just plain wrong. A huge pile of historical evidence shows that the Nazi ideology did NOT AT ALL dissolve in 1945. I don't want to start history lessons here; but today, even representatives of the conservative parties in Germany acknowledge that a lot of the old Nazis were never punished, and further crimes happened, because Nazi judges, professors, politicians, entrepreneurs etc. came back into their old offices or got new influential posts, many Nazi laws weren't abolished, and Nazi ideology was alive and well, although of course in some respects suppressed by taboos and the power of the Allies. That was one of the main political issues of the 1968 political movement in Germany and subsequent political movements. Of course, an ideology that many people really believe in, and practice, does not vanish just because a war is lost. Millions of people had been socialised into Nazi thought and practice. It takes serious and long-term societal efforts to change something like that. And nowadays it is very well known in Germany that such efforts weren't really started to make before 1968.
-
Sorry missed your reply completely there...
Well this is something where our views differ a bit...
I explained my views quite clearly there already. I was ofcourse talking about the official nazi ideology there, you seems to mix it into what went on with people's heads which ofcourse was not what I meant.
The point I was making, there is a difference between nazis and neo-nazis...and the difference is nazis do not exist anymore.
-
And what you know her personally so you exactly what her news are? :D
Yup, had a drink with her yesterday.. :P No, it's rather that i see the whole European political climate at the moment are pretty much the same as in the 30's, so i'm, as said, able to read (or listen) between the lines. It's pretty obvious if you just wanna give it a thorough thought.
If you adopted the nazi ideology later you are a neo-nazi
Basically though when the nazi party was dissolved so was the nazi ideology.
And there's the contradiction...
-
and the difference is nazis do not exist anymore.
Exept that Hitler & co is still alive and well in Argentine and Paraguay... :rofl:
-
Sorry missed your reply completely there...
Well this is something where our views differ a bit...
I explained my views quite clearly there already. I was ofcourse talking about the official nazi ideology there, you seems to mix it into what went on with people's heads which ofcourse was not what I meant.
The point I was making, there is a difference between nazis and neo-nazis...and the difference is nazis do not exist anymore.
Ideology is a comprehensive set of normative beliefs, conscious and unconscious ideas, that an individual, group or society has.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology
Ideology IS by definition something going on with people's heads (and hearts). It is definitely not identical to e.g. written documents of official parties or anything like that, though it can of course be strengthened and, to an extent, regulated by such documents.
Even if you do equate "Nazi ideology" to "what NSDAP documents were saying" (which is not the usual thing of defining it, as I pointed out), much of that was in fact still alive and well after 1945, and is to some extent alive in our days. As I said, even many Nazi laws (including the one about homosexuality which was only abolished in 1995) remained, and old Nazi judges were convicting people according to those laws. Many AFD (now-popular Nazi, or if you prefer right-wing, party in the German parliament) officials use original Nazi vocabulary all the time.
You seem to assume that Nazi ideology could not change. And I do agree that there is a big difference between the original Nazi movement for which had antisemitism was essential, and those of the current movements which are more focused on racism against Muslims. But first, Billy is right to point out that some of them are simply being careful because antisemitism (though still being pretty popular in Europe and elsewhere, as many representative studies show) isn't 100% politically opportune ATM. And second, most of the more Muslim-focused right-wing movements in Europe have close ties to more old-style antisemitic Nazis (or Neo-Nazis, if you prefer that), and many have shifted back and forth between focusing one resentment or the other in the past. The French Front National is a good example in that it has been shifting back and forth for decades.
We shouldn't overlook the continuities though. E.g. Anti-Romanyism was an essential aspect of original Nazi ideology and practice, and still is an essential aspect of (Neo-)Nazi ideology and practice today in many countries. There is much more, but this comment is already much too long... :(
-
and the difference is nazis do not exist anymore.
Exept that Hitler & co is still alive and well in Argentine and Paraguay... :rofl:
Actually, some Nazi criminals, though of course extremely old, are still alive:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Most_Wanted_Nazi_War_Criminals_according_to_the_Simon_Wiesenthal_Center
-
Actually, some Nazi criminals, though of course extremely old, are still alive:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Most_Wanted_Nazi_War_Criminals_according_to_the_Simon_Wiesenthal_Center
I know, as you see from my post above where i said
There were Nazis who were part of the Nazi party who kept the ideology, some (though very few) still alive today.
But what you're quoting there was ofcourse a joke on behalf of the many conspiracy theories on the subject. I think you deep down understand that...
And, yes, many Nazis did, with the aid of the Vatican state, escape to South America.
-
I know, as you see from my post above
Sorry, I had overlooked that part.
But what you're quoting there was ofcourse a joke on behalf of the many conspiracy theories on the subject. I think you deep down understand that...
Of course I understood that, deep down as well as in front and above.:D My comment was not meant as criticism of your comment, I just wanted to add the "some old Nazis are still alive" point which I (mistakenly) thought was missing so far. That's one of the problems with posting, it's much harder to convey the complete message (both in terms of content and moral and emotional coloration) than face-to-face.
-
Tru dat.
Now... This thread was originally intended as a sort of "random thought" thread, but given how it've turned out i found it fitting to move it to the serious part of the boards.
-
:whistling:
:death: I HATE Nazis and skinheads - just sayin :batdance:
A bit of an oxymoron, considering the who the original Skinheads were: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinhead
I have never read that before - very interesting. I guess I am coming from my experience with Skinheads in the late 80s and 90s they were all Neo Nazis and racist scumbags.
-
:whistling: :death: I HATE Nazis and skinheads - just sayin :batdance:
A bit of an oxymoron, considering the who the original Skinheads were: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinhead
I have never read that before - very interesting. I guess I am coming from my experience with Skinheads in the late 80s and 90s they were all Neo Nazis and racist scumbags.
You live and you learn ;) :thumbsup:
-
I'm really not very good in deutsch...my knowlage of the language limits pretty much in car lingo as I have bought few cars from there...
Kupplung, Gangschaltung, Sitzheizung, Windschutzscheibe? :D
:diohorns:
-
:whistling: :death: I HATE Nazis and skinheads - just sayin :batdance:
A bit of an oxymoron, considering the who the original Skinheads were: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinhead
I have never read that before - very interesting. I guess I am coming from my experience with Skinheads in the late 80s and 90s they were all Neo Nazis and racist scumbags.
It's an interesting history for sure. I admit I don't know very much about it, just a few basic facts. Anyway, the present situation is different, and as I said highly dependent on where you live. E.g. in the part of Berlin where I live, which has a disproportionally high amount of Nazi voters (but even more leftwing voters - they are much less obvious on the streets though), I see skinheads walking around regularly, and it is pretty clear from their clothes and tattoos etc. that they are all Nazis.
-
In the 90's there was street fights, bordering to actual war between left wing skinhead punks (called Blitzers, as the occupied house they centered around was called Blitz) and neo-Nazis in Oslo. They used to call themselves "shorthaired gentlemens".
Just a small anecdote...
-
I'm really not very good in deutsch...my knowlage of the language limits pretty much in car lingo as I have bought few cars from there...
Kupplung, Gangschaltung, Sitzheizung, Windschutzscheibe? :D
Nowadays more like komfortzugang, aktivesitzbelüftung, aktive geschwindigkeitsregelung & Adaptives kurvenlicht... ;)
Hey just wanna say sorry to Billy I kinda derailed this thread...that was not my intent. I see the error of my ways now...and it's time for me to be:
:buhbye:
-
^^^ Derailing a bit isn't the worst thing in the world. As long as you're not a train... :)
-
I'm really not very good in deutsch...my knowlage of the language limits pretty much in car lingo as I have bought few cars from there...
Kupplung, Gangschaltung, Sitzheizung, Windschutzscheibe? :D
Nowadays more like komfortzugang, aktivesitzbelüftung, aktive geschwindigkeitsregelung & Adaptives kurvenlicht... ;)
Great, I kinda hoped I could make you come up with several German words that I never heard before - and I succeeded. :lol: "Aktive Geschwindigkeitsregelung", OMG, this term (totally new to me) perfectly summarises how German is a fascinating and frightening at the same time.
As long as we all learn something, I agree with Billy that a little derailing of a thread is fine. :D
-
Great, I kinda hoped I could make you come up with several German words that I never heard before - and I succeeded. :lol: "Aktive Geschwindigkeitsregelung", OMG, this term (totally new to me) perfectly summarises how German is a fascinating and frightening at the same time.
As long as we all learn something, I agree with Billy that a little derailing of a thread is fine. :D
Glad to be of service! :D
I do remember you don't drive so I can understand car terms might not be so known to you.
-
Great, I kinda hoped I could make you come up with several German words that I never heard before - and I succeeded. :lol: "Aktive Geschwindigkeitsregelung", OMG, this term (totally new to me) perfectly summarises how German is a fascinating and frightening at the same time.
As long as we all learn something, I agree with Billy that a little derailing of a thread is fine. :D
Glad to be of service! :D
I do remember you don't drive so I can understand car terms might not be so known to you.
Exactly! And I am really not a fan of cars, but I admit those terms you mentioned are fun, even for me as a native German language speaker. :wootwoot:
-
Should we eat mangoes, bananas and tangerines?
-
Saw the mention of Nazis getting to South America by way of the Vatican. That was a focus of my research for a while, documenting the criminals that the US intelligence network would protect from prosecution in exchange for support in building out anti-communist networks in postwar Europe.
The criminals would get to South America by way of Cardinal Draganovic of the Croatian College in The Vatican. Fascist sympathizers were able to remain and be incorporated into Gladio programs, designed to create and maintain potential partisan groups to operate behind Communist lines in the event of a Soviet-led invasion of Western Europe. In Italy, the Gladio networks were used to create a strategy of tension, in which extremists of both sides were pitted against each other in violent outbursts, with an intention to drive voters to centrist parties in the name of providing stability - even though the centrists were the ones responsible for putting the violence into motion.
-
Rock star material?:
(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/34/3f/a1/343fa1b5831a35f41cbb6b00202efd9d--band-kiss-yearbook-pictures.jpg)
Just goes to show that the dream he had on the inside, went far beyond his physical appearance.
-
So when was that photo taken?
-
I don't know, probably when Paul was in Junior High or something. When I saw that picture I thought, I'll bet he wasn't voted the most likely to succeed.
Here's a weird one of Ozzy I've never seen before:
(https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/gUfMJFtTkMQFL2U35tiDY3.jpg)
-
^^^ From his cameo in Mad Max II? :rofl:
-
Why? Banana peel? Checking for midgets under the ring?
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/f72681cd00eae5baea41a9b9a9a59def/tumblr_p7v2rzCSYl1u1ljrzo1_500.gif)
-
Ouch. That's a good way to get a banged-up knee.
-
Why? Banana peel? Checking for midgets under the ring?
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/f72681cd00eae5baea41a9b9a9a59def/tumblr_p7v2rzCSYl1u1ljrzo1_500.gif)
I follow wrestling and I saw that on YouTube yesterday... priceless.
If anyone cares, this event took place in Saudi Arabia and no women were allowed to wrestle, do interviews or even attend the event. This was a huge money grab for WWE to the tune of about 200M at the expense of the women's talent. "Supposedly" the WWE is going to give paychecks to all of the female talent as a peace offering for not being able to compete. The whole situation stinks AFAIC.
I know the Saudis have laws concerning women but the WWE used terrible judgement in putting on an event in a country that disrespects women. Money over Ideals. :wha:
-
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/f72681cd00eae5baea41a9b9a9a59def/tumblr_p7v2rzCSYl1u1ljrzo1_500.gif)
It's just acting, like everything else in American wrestling... :whistling: :smug:
Money over Ideals.
The Saudi family and the Wahhabi sect have truly arrested the development for muslims in every way the last century... :(
-
Just a correction: women WERE allowed to attend this wrestling event. They did interviews and the guys were glad they could bring their families. But all else holds true.
-
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/f72681cd00eae5baea41a9b9a9a59def/tumblr_p7v2rzCSYl1u1ljrzo1_500.gif)
It's just acting, like everything else in American wrestling... :whistling: :smug:
Money over Ideals.
The Saudi family and the Wahhabi sect have truly arrested the development for muslims in every way the last century... :(
Of course wrestling is acting, but this was truly a FAIL!
-
Of course wrestling is acting, but this was truly a FAIL!
Yeah, it's pretty obvious. I just couldn't let the joke pass by... :) :wootwoot:
-
Of course wrestling is acting, but this was truly a FAIL!
Yeah, it's pretty obvious. I just couldn't let the joke pass by... :) :wootwoot:
Why am I not surprised Billy :P
-
Why does anyone give a damn about this royal wedding? It hasn't even happened yet, and I am already sick of hearing about it. Is it me? Am I the odd one? :squint:
-
I don't. :nono:
-
Who said i'm getting married?
-
Why does anyone give a damn about this royal wedding? It hasn't even happened yet, and I am already sick of hearing about it. Is it me? Am I the odd one? :squint:
Bloody good question...every magazine, newspaper, website and tv channel is going on and on about that shit....like someone really cares.... :zomg:
-
Why does anyone give a damn about this royal wedding? It hasn't even happened yet, and I am already sick of hearing about it. Is it me? Am I the odd one? :squint:
...boring as Hell ... ???
-
Oh, it's so romantic :-* :wub: :death:
Luckily most Norwegian journalists have been on strike the last half-a-week, so we haven't really gotten too much "news" about it.
-
Been pretty quiet on here the last few hours. Ya'll watching the royal wedding or something?
-
Been pretty quiet on here the last few hours. Ya'll watching the royal wedding or something?
Oh yes! 100% of the Community is present at the wedding right now. Trying to catch a glimpse of the Queen's hat.
-
Been pretty quiet on here the last few hours. Ya'll watching the royal wedding or something?
In North America we are asleep at 5 AM (thankfully).
Oh yes! 100% of the Community is present at the wedding right now. Trying to catch a glimpse of the Queen's hat.
:)) :))
-
Was on in prime time here in Australia for 6 straight hours on 4 free to air tv channels.
I think they overestimated a tad the amount of fucks given.
-
All the networks are showing it all around the world because if there's a chance to show a princess without paying Disney a royalty fee (ha! pun!), they're gonna do it. It's the same reason Geffen told David Coverdale to learn how to dance and tease his hair out... PEOPLE WANT TO SEE A PRINCESS!!!
:coverdale:
-
Was on in prime time here in Australia for 6 straight hours on 4 free to air tv channels.
I think they overestimated a tad the amount of fucks given.
That is unbelievable. :twitch: If you come across any accurate ratings it got over there, I would be interested to see what percentage actually tuned in. :drama:
-
Was on in prime time here in Australia for 6 straight hours on 4 free to air tv channels.
I think they overestimated a tad the amount of fucks given.
That is unbelievable. :twitch: If you come across any accurate ratings it got over there, I would be interested to see what percentage actually tuned in. :drama:
Raitings were off the charts. Close to five million(population 24million) across all the tv networks tuned in. So I was obviously in the minority number of fucks given.
-
^^^^^^
For most of my life I have not understood why so many people care about things that I feel are unimportant and insignificant. I don't mean to sound elitist, but it seems like these type of events intrigue the simpleminded.
-
Bread and circuses will do that.
-
^^^^^^
For most of my life I have not understood why so many people care about things that I feel are unimportant and insignificant. I don't mean to sound elitist, but it seems like these type of events intrigue the simpleminded.
I think people treat it more as an event like a Super Bowl or something and just have to take it in. The media forces it down everyone's throat it's hard to escape it. Also not to forget Australia's ties with the monarchy. Queen Elizabeth II is still our nations sovereign head of state.
-
771000 tuned in here...out of 5 million...so that's quite a lot too...
And no I was NOT one of them.
-
Who got married?
-
Who got married?
Some chick and some dude...chick was an actress (as far as I know) and dude was a price, but not THE Prince cause..well he wouldn't make a very lively groom anymore...
-
^^^^^^
For most of my life I have not understood why so many people care about things that I feel are unimportant and insignificant. I don't mean to sound elitist, but it seems like these type of events intrigue the simpleminded.
I think people treat it more as an event like a Super Bowl or something and just have to take it in.
I do watch the Super Bowl, but mainly because I put some money on it.
The media forces it down everyone's throat it's hard to escape it.
True, it is the simpleminded who are more easily strung along by the media.
Also not to forget Australia's ties with the monarchy. Queen Elizabeth II is still our nations sovereign head of state.
True again. All I can say is if one of my President's children were getting married, I wouldn't waste time watching that either.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho276_OiALI
Jajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajaja
-
I think people treat it more as an event like a Super Bowl or something
I find that (or the World Championship in FOOTball, for that matter) just as boring and useless as a royal wedding. It's the same bread & circus thing...
All I can say is if one of my President's children were getting married, I wouldn't waste time watching that either.
Can't really compair a royal family with a person who's swapped out every 4 or 8 years, though. Not quite the same...
-
I think people treat it more as an event like a Super Bowl or something
I find that (or the World Championship in FOOTball, for that matter) just as boring and useless as a royal wedding. It's the same bread & circus thing...
I find watching live sport the best reality show on tv
-
Can't really compair a royal family with a person who's swapped out every 4 or 8 years, though. Not quite the same...
True one's got real power and the other is just a ceremonial "job"....
-
Can't really compair a royal family with a person who's swapped out every 4 or 8 years, though. Not quite the same...
True one's got real power and the other is just a ceremonial "job"....
:yes: Very observant of you. :pub:
-
Can't really compair a royal family with a person who's swapped out every 4 or 8 years, though. Not quite the same...
True one's got real power and the other is just a ceremonial "job"....
Yeah, that's one of many differences. Good job, Charg... :)