DOOM, Stoner & Gothic; What are the differences?

[Charger]

These three groups of heavy music have always been rather close to each other and we have talked about the differences before on various threads but I though it might actually deserve a conversation of it's own.

I remember me and Billy once talked about the band Type O Negative...he thought of it more DOOM and I thought of it to be pure Gothic...I don't really remember how we ended things with that though...Here's another topic I wish I could carry on talking about with the man... Anyways I digress.

Here's what I'm thinking..

DOOM: Musically heavy riff oriented stuff...anywhere from really slow plodding stuff to a fast rocker. Lyrically heavy in religion, devil, magic, fantasy and occationally politics. (Candlemass as a good example)

Stoner: Heavy riffing but not as slow as DOOM can be. Lyrically more about life and quite often about drugs and doing drugs. (DOWN as a good example)

Gothic: Heavy slow riffing but also very prominent keyboard presence. Lyrically more about life and love and lost love and such. (Type O Negative as a good example)

Naturally all three can intertwine lyrically but I've always kind of thought that base lines might look something like that...

What do you guys think?

[Tyr66]

Doom : I think you defined the genre very well. We can also say that the genre itself has several subgenres like Traditional Doom, Funeral Doom, Black Doom etc ...

Stoner: this subfamily must also be described as Vintage certainly in view of the multitude of bands appeared with the 70's artistic codes such as  artworks and sounds very strongly (often too much) connoted Sabbath.

Gothic: One of the almost unanimous influence is The Sisters of Mercy cult band: low and monotonous voice, repetitive riffs and  rhythms, romantic or even necromantic lyrics. Gay or androgynous look is also characteristic. ok, not at all the case of Type O Negative, although Peter Steele had posed nude for photos in a specialized magazine. He was a sexual icon at the height of the group's notoriety.

[Zzzptm]

What a great topic to come back to after doing documentation for a week!

Ok, the keys to these genres go back to the sounds that started them. Two, doom and stoner, come straight out of Black Sabbath.

Doom is the song "Black Sabbath." Totally. Slow, but huge chords, big concept, heavy stuff. There can be fast parts to doom songs, but their being played in some really doomy key like d-flat minor keeps them doomy. "Falling off the Edge of the World" is a great example of fast doom. Other Sabbath doom would include "Iron Man", "War Pigs", "Voodoo", "The Sign of the Southern Cross", and "Megalomania".

Now stoner... think "Sweet Leaf." Chords that sound like grinding gears, signing about living a life - if the band doesn't like drugs, they call themselves "desert" instead of "stoner" - and generally in a more major-sounding key. It's still heavy music, but we're not worried about dying or demon possession or nuclear war. To me, a good stoner tune sounds like there's an engine running in the background. I go to Deep Purple for more stoner sounds, "Space Truckin", "Highway Star", and, yes, "Smoke on the Water" all have that engine running.

Gothic is a more stripped-back sound with typically fast rhythm, dominated by tomtom drums. Guitars tend to play longer notes at higher pitches. There's often a keyboard player, but the playing is usually less restrained than what's typical for hard rock. We go to stuff by Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Damned, and The Sisters of Mercy for the best goth examples. It's close to doom when it plays slow and/or in a minor key, but goes high when doom goes low. Goth can get close to stoner when the guitar plays chunkier chords or the keyboard guy goes full Deep Purple.

Album-wise, Paranoid is the first completely doom record and Machine Head is the first all-stoner album. For goth, go to The Damned's Phantasmagoria to see one of the places where it all began.

There's lots more stoner and doom than goth being put out by the kids on Bandcamp these days. There's a lot that's mediocre, and more than a few awful ones. The ones that stand out for me would be...

Doom: Holy Grove, Ruby the Hatchet

Stoner: Truckfighters, Mos Generator, Fu Manchu, Wo Fat, Honeymoon Disease (you can tell where my fave of the three are...)

Goth: Sky Valley Mistress, Deaf Radio



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[Zzzptm]

Doom : I think you defined the genre very well. We can also say that the genre itself has several subgenres like Traditional Doom, Funeral Doom, Black Doom etc ...

Stoner: this subfamily must also be described as Vintage certainly in view of the multitude of bands appeared with the 70's artistic codes such as  artworks and sounds very strongly (often too much) connoted Sabbath.

Gothic: One of the almost unanimous influence is The Sisters of Mercy cult band: low and monotonous voice, repetitive riffs and  rhythms, romantic or even necromantic lyrics. Gay or androgynous look is also characteristic. ok, not at all the case of Type O Negative, although Peter Steele had posed nude for photos in a specialized magazine. He was a sexual icon at the height of the group's notoriety.

Interesting that I didn't see this when I typed in my response, but that we're saying similar things.

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[Tyr66]

Doom : I think you defined the genre very well. We can also say that the genre itself has several subgenres like Traditional Doom, Funeral Doom, Black Doom etc ...

Stoner: this subfamily must also be described as Vintage certainly in view of the multitude of bands appeared with the 70's artistic codes such as  artworks and sounds very strongly (often too much) connoted Sabbath.

Gothic: One of the almost unanimous influence is The Sisters of Mercy cult band: low and monotonous voice, repetitive riffs and  rhythms, romantic or even necromantic lyrics. Gay or androgynous look is also characteristic. ok, not at all the case of Type O Negative, although Peter Steele had posed nude for photos in a specialized magazine. He was a sexual icon at the height of the group's notoriety.

Interesting that I didn't see this when I typed in my response, but that we're saying similar things.

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agreed but you 've developed much more your point of view !
love your definition of Fast Doom!
other examples: Neon Knights of course and Dark Reflections by Candlemass 

[Vyn]

Not completely on point, but close! In the late eighties/early nineties I lived in Washington D.C. Me and a friend of mine went to stay with his cousin(?) in Long Island one weekend and we went and saw five or six bands play a show in Brooklyn.

I remember one of them was White Zombie, but the one I remember most was Type-O Negative.

It was mentioned earlier in this thread how Gothic includes components of love/romance/etc.

My friend met a girl at that concert. Seems they shared a thing for Type-O Negative. They started going out, and right before I moved away a few years later they got married and moved to Delaware.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[Charger]

This Sisters Of Mercy band you guys mentioned...damn...I've never even heard of it!

 

But ZZZ calling Machine Head stoner...

I gotta go with:
 

[Tyr66]

This Sisters Of Mercy band you guys mentioned...damn...I've never even heard of it!

 

Never too late , Bro' !! 
I could mention Fields of the Nephilim as a big Goth influence too :

[Zzzptm]

But ZZZ calling Machine Head stoner...

I gotta go with:
 

Deep Purple didn't set out to make a stoner album when they made Machine Head, but a ton of stoner bands want to make albums that sound like Machine Head, especially "Space Truckin".

Try this one out, from California's Fu Manchu:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db1LhWdo91I

To me, it's got the chunk of "Space Truckin" played at "Highway Star" speeds. If it sounds like any Sabbath track, it's "Trashed", and guess who was writing and singing that track...

But definitely, stoner bands are more likely than others to go for a 70's hard rock sound. Doom guys don't care if it sounds modern and stuff, but stoner bands really like to reach back to 1973 and play like concert tickets are still $5 for a decent seat.

This one has more of a "Black Night" riff to it, but still very much like a full-on DP blaster:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMbsju-qSeE

[Charger]

That is interesting take on it though zzz...

I always put Stoner in bit more slower sluggier stuff with the occational rocker but still played at a low tuning. That's why picturing Machine Head as stoner doesn't really fit in my book...

70s hard rock sound is a whole different genre again. But I don't know...that's why we are having this conversation.

I gotta listen to those tracks when I get the chance!

[Zzzptm]

Stoner certainly does have slower stuff, like the genre-defining "Desert Cruiser" by Truckfighters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYSgIUpZqWs

The guitar drone and repetition owes a lot to Hawkwind and puts stoner/desert pretty close to space rock.

You can hear more Hawkwind/Motorhead influence in Fusskalt's "Drive", but the sound stays pretty firmly within 70s hard rock / NWOBHM sensibilities, with modern production that brings the bass way up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovOW7plsH-k

And then Honeymoon Disease takes lots of cues from Heart and Elton John, but retain their biker/stoner cred because they're Swedish, so they can make pop and hard rock work together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scuE_HiISCQ

[Zzzptm]

And then there's stoner doom...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4mSMLGHtWg

Why is this stoner doom and not just stoner or just doom? It's because it's still a doom-y song, but it's slowed down, the chords are chunkier and more distorted, and the drums are taking a page from the goth playbook to get that engine running in the song feel. This is Black Sabbath driving to Joshua Tree in a '66 Challenger.

[Charger]

Well yes Stoner Doom is another term...which probably was bit closer to what I meant in the original post I suppose...



Now let's raise the bar a little bit and bring in Black Sabbath.

I think everyone can agree that the first 3 albums were pretty much 100% Doom (or maybe stoner doom with those couple druggy tracks, Sweet Leaf, Hand Of Doom and Fairies Wear Boots especially) but what about Vol 4 and Sabbath Bloody Sabbath? I think the only pure doom song on those two albums is Under The Sun...and Cornucopia is touching doom with the intro riff atleast...
But the rest? Snowblind and Supernaut are stoner for sure both musically and lyrically I'd say.
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath doesn't really have anything that's doomy...Killing Yourself To Live could be considered Stoner I suppose. But the rest? Just heavy metal / Hard rock?

Sabotage is Heavy Metal with progressive edge...

Heaven And Hell?

Mob Rules has The Sign Of The Southern Cross which is again 100% DOOM...Turn Up The Night could fit that mold too..

Born Again has Disturbing The Priest, Thrashed and Born Again that are DOOM.

Dehumanzier is 100% DOOM from start to finish.

Cross Purposes is the doomiest of all Martin Albums for sure.

The Devil You Know again is 100% DOOOOOOM!

13 is DOOM with a stoner edge I'd say.

Opinions? Disagreements?

[Zzzptm]

Vol 4 I would put in the stoner category - lyrics overall more about living that life, not dealing with metaphysical questions.

SBS has the grooves that it takes to make a good stoner album, even though the opener has a great doom riff, as does the second track.

Sabotage is heavy metal, but with that doomy flavour - doom metal!

And all the Dio albums are doomy, no question. Mob Rules the most so.