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[Zzzptm]

^^^
You do pretty poor job in adhering to your own rules...

I am not amused.

I hope you can bear with me - and I wanted to respond to the genuineness I read in Typhon's last comment.

I wanted to go into that "fair shake" area and walk through some deep concerns I have with Trump, both the person and the politician. It doesn't stop other people from finding value in what he's done. It's just part of why I am deeply disappointed in his administration. If someone asks me for an assessment of, say, Jimmy Carter, I'd have some mostly positive comments about his character, but I would criticize him for his failure to have a proper backstop for cutting support to the Shah's regime and the Somoza regime, his support of the Pol Pot regime against Vietnam, and his encouragement of fundamentalist Islamic resistance in Afghanistan, among other things. I'm going to evaluate a leader based upon what was done or not done, not on partisan lines.

I know people who will say that Stalin or Mao were always right, always right. I find such uncritical acceptance of historical figures to be against my nature. I know too much about humans to be all for or all against what they're doing. In Trump's case, particularly in this administration, so much of what he or his appointees have done has been of a high shock value that I'm left with the impression that the announcement and initial impression of his policies are more important to him than the follow-through. I find that concerning. The follow-through is what we live with and if it's lacking, we suffer for it.

If Typhon (or anyone) responds with a list of the positives they see in Trump, laid out from the heart, that would be a good discussion. If there was a question about something I mentioned, I'd be glad to clarify.

I just don't want any insults or name-calling, that's the real thing I desire. And not as a rule, but as a request. There's a whole thing in Judaism about Hillel vs Shammai... Shammai was all about rules and Hillel was about the spirit of the laws... I'm team Hillel in my philosophy.

If I'm better off for learning not to react in the moment, but to be still in the moment, then this is part of that betterment process.

[Vyn]

This should probably go in a different thread, but seems apropos.

I took my wife out to a flea market that's in town, just to get out of the house. I left with a sealed copy of War's Why Can't We Be Friends?. It's OG with the poster, coolest part was opening it up - was like a trip to the past pulling out my tricks at getting tight cellophane off of a record.

[Zzzptm]

This should probably go in a different thread, but seems apropos.

I took my wife out to a flea market that's in town, just to get out of the house. I left with a sealed copy of War's Why Can't We Be Friends?. It's OG with the poster, coolest part was opening it up - was like a trip to the past pulling out my tricks at getting tight cellophane off of a record.

*Sealed* Oh man, that's gold, and not just the tooth on the cover!

[Typhon]

@Zzzptm - I won't be as long winded.

     President Trump accomplishments in 1st year.

1. Secured the southern border
2. Criminal alien crackdown and deportations
3. Lower gas prices
4. Suppressed crime in D.C.
5. High military recruitment
6. Lower taxes on workers
7. Higher defense spending from NATO
8. Robust actions to stop drug smuggling into U.S.

I believe the last one is the most important and will continue.  As far as any personal complaints you have about the man, I don't gave a damn.  One thing you need to learn, and I can't stress this enough, business and personal have nothing to do with each other.  Nothing!

[Zzzptm]

Well, my personal experience with the sketchy personal has resulted in bad business... We'll disagree on that one. Not a complete disagreement, just a "never say never" codicil on my part.

As for what you find positive, thanks for that.

[Typhon]

So Bill Clinton has decided to ignore a subpoena issued to him from the Senate committee investigating the Epstein case.  Both Republicans and Democrats signed on to this subpoena.  In the 8 years Clinton was president, Jeffery Epstein visited the White House 17 times.  In addition, Clinton has flown on Epstein's plane a total of 27 times over the years.  The committee was not accusing Clinton of anything, but wants to ask questions concerning these facts.  Clinton could get himself in serious trouble by ignoring this subpoena.  Anyone who wants to know more of went on with Epstein should find this troubling.

[Charger]

Yes that made the news here too.

But hey we all know Bill liked 'em boobies!

[Zzzptm]

Yep. Clinton's shine has dimmed significantly, the more we know about his extracurricular activities.

[Charger]

I'm not sure he ever had any shine...

[Zzzptm]

I'm not sure he ever had any shine...

Oh he had shine... used to be the top draw for Democratic Party fundraisers. Now... not so much... allegations and all...

[Vyn]

He (Bill C.) used to have international influence. That basically evaporated after his presidency. He used to have national influence. That drained away at a steady pace and is now gone.

Although spending as much time as he did with/around Epstein and Co. isn't a guarantee of bad behavior, it does raise questions, and given Bill's proclivity to play Hide the Cigar and lie about it, it's difficult to imagine he did not in one way or another participate in activities that served to bolster the illegal sex trafficking industry. Combine that with (former) Prince Andrew's downfall, and the fact that Bill is a very intelligent guy who spent a career succeeding in the cut-throat politics of the presidency, and the rumors that have plagued him since his early days in Arkansas politics as someone who would  make people disappear...at the very least it is piss-poor optics for a guy who should have known better. At worst - who knows.

There's a whole lot of legitimate smoke that's been coming out of the Epstein Follies. Whether it's all from one tiny match-flame or a roaring bonfire is something that I think will always be shrouded behind even more smoke, and some mirrors.

To put a little perspective on this - I went to China a long time ago for business, along with three other guys. We are nobodies. Certainly not power-players in American politics. Or any kind of players in politics. Yet, while there, girls were sent to each of our hotel rooms in the evenings after things wrapped up. Compliments of the people we were their meeting with. I told my girl I was married and believed in the vows I took, so we hung out and talked for a while then she left. She asked me to give her a thumbs up if asked or she would get in trouble. The next day at lunch, I was asked if I enjoyed my evening. I said resoundingly yes, that it was a perfect experience to cap off a long day of work.

On the trip home, we all discussed things. None of us took advantage of the girls except for one guy. The two that didn't were both single, the guy that went all-in was married. I lost a lot of respect for him as a person, but the point is sex is a tool used all over the place and if they do that shit with people like me, I have zero doubt that Epstein and Maxwell were showing power-players a good time in more ways than one.

And, like my experience, I have zero doubt that some went all-in, and some didn't. And Bill C.'s past doesn't instill me with an immediate feeling of "no, he wouldn't."

[Vyn]

To expound a bit more - I don't care what consenting people do together, and since my experience happened in China, I wasn't all buggered up about the pleasure girls because that's how things are done there. If those single guys would have jumped on it, I would not have judged them for it - they were both still wet behind the ears. I might have dropped some hints about moral turpitude and non-con-sensuality...but ultimately it would not have bothered me. The married dude, though. I lost respect for him because his actions made him a liar (he did not want anyone to know about it, especially his wife).

Several years later, and that married guy, who became a VP, got fired for soliciting sex with 14 year old girls. On company time, with company gear...tried to lie his way out of that too. First blamed his own son...but it's a long story. Anyway, the guy showed he had a broken moral compass and he behaved accordingly. Oh, as far as the criminal side of things - I had contacted the FBI when I was performing my investigation, and I know they were doing something but never heard what became of the dude. He used a site called Backpages when he would travel (and at home!) to do his initial looking, and it was about two months after he got let go that the FBI seized that website and charged the owners with child sex trafficking. I can only imagine good things did not come that dude's way.

[Typhon]

Very interesting story, Vyn.  It reminds me of a slightly similar experience.

One of my closest friends for 50+ years, has been married for 40+ years.  His wife became a good friend as well, because the 3 of us have hung out so many times over the years.  About 20 years ago he had a brief affair.  This was the only time he ever strayed.  When his wife found out about it, she needed my shoulder to cry on.  I told her that I disapproved of what he had done.  When she told him what I said, he became upset with me.  I told him, "You broke your vow.  Did you expect me to defend that?"  He claimed that he had a much larger sex drive than I do, so I couldn't understand.  I told him that's just an excuse cheaters use.

Today, all is pretty much forgotten.  Their marriage is fine and we still hang out frequently.  But I have to admit, ever sense then my respect for him dropped down a small notch.  The way I look at it is, if you can't keep the vow, then don't take it to begin with.

[Zzzptm]

Reminds me of a teacher I knew at another high school, but we were both Academic Decathlon coaches, so we saw each other at meets and had fun conversations and stuff.

Rather than tell his story of moral compass gone all wrong, I'll let the Department of Justice sum it up:

https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndtx/pr/former-garland-high-school-teacher-sentenced-eight-years-federal-prison-possessing

He took photos and videos and one of the students was 17 at the time. I didn't have any conversations with him after he went to federal prison in Seagoville, Texas.

My rule as a teacher was to always have the door open if there was only one other person in the room with me. I wanted to make sure I avoided the appearance of evil, as well as any evil in and of itself.

Which is why I don't go to Coldplay concerts. My wife means so much to me, I can't play around like that.

[Charger]

Vyn the man of the world! That's a great story!

Which is why I don't go to Coldplay concerts. My wife means so much to me, I can't play around like that.

Also you would lose your mind listening to that music!