13 - For Completists Only?

[Jack the Stripper]

Zeitgeist is probably my least favourite...it doesn't have an original note on it. Planet Caravan pt. 1.5... Damaged Soul has got that blues vibe that is softer enough.

I've always enjoyed Sabbath's softer side and like when bands do a similar sounding song that works like like a companion or sequel to the original. I think they really nailed it with Zeitgeist. Great song!

[Typhon]

Zeitgeist is probably my least favourite...it doesn't have an original note on it. Planet Caravan pt. 1.5... Damaged Soul has got that blues vibe that is softer enough.

I've always enjoyed Sabbath's softer side and like when bands do a similar sounding song that works like like a companion or sequel to the original. I think they really nailed it with Zeitgeist. Great song!

I really like Zeitgeist a lot too.  But I don't understand why you mixed The End with 13.    In my mind they are 2 separate CDs.

[Jack the Stripper]

Zeitgeist is probably my least favourite...it doesn't have an original note on it. Planet Caravan pt. 1.5... Damaged Soul has got that blues vibe that is softer enough.

I've always enjoyed Sabbath's softer side and like when bands do a similar sounding song that works like like a companion or sequel to the original. I think they really nailed it with Zeitgeist. Great song!

I really like Zeitgeist a lot too.  But I don't understand why you mixed The End with 13.    In my mind they are 2 separate CDs.

They are all from the same recording session and it was Rubin that chose the final track listing and the sequencing for 13. That's why I combined it and is what I think wouldve made 13 much better.

[Charger]

I really like Zeitgeist a lot too.  But I don't understand why you mixed The End with 13.    In my mind they are 2 separate CDs.

Well techincally both yes and no. As all the songs were recorded at the same time during the 13 sessions and any of those songs could have ended up on 13. In fact if I recall right Tony mentioned in an interview that he would have chosen a very different bunch of songs to be on the actual album than what Ruin Rubin did.

[Typhon]

I really like Zeitgeist a lot too.  But I don't understand why you mixed The End with 13.    In my mind they are 2 separate CDs.

Well techincally both yes and no. As all the songs were recorded at the same time during the 13 sessions and any of those songs could have ended up on 13. In fact if I recall right Tony mentioned in an interview that he would have chosen a very different bunch of songs to be on the actual album than what Ruin Rubin did.

And it is that which I can't understand.  If it were me in a legendary band like that, I would want to be making those decisions.  I am kind of a hands-on guy anyways, but it just seems ridiculous.

[Charger]

I really like Zeitgeist a lot too.  But I don't understand why you mixed The End with 13.    In my mind they are 2 separate CDs.

Well techincally both yes and no. As all the songs were recorded at the same time during the 13 sessions and any of those songs could have ended up on 13. In fact if I recall right Tony mentioned in an interview that he would have chosen a very different bunch of songs to be on the actual album than what Ruin Rubin did.

And it is that which I can't understand.  If it were me in a legendary band like that, I would want to be making those decisions.  I am kind of a hands-on guy anyways, but it just seems ridiculous.

I do agree BUT in the music biz it is the producer who decides the track listing usually. And Rubin is quite the dictator from what I've heard so it's pretty much always his way or no way.

[Jack the Stripper]

I really like Zeitgeist a lot too.  But I don't understand why you mixed The End with 13.    In my mind they are 2 separate CDs.

Well techincally both yes and no. As all the songs were recorded at the same time during the 13 sessions and any of those songs could have ended up on 13. In fact if I recall right Tony mentioned in an interview that he would have chosen a very different bunch of songs to be on the actual album than what Ruin Rubin did.

And it is that which I can't understand.  If it were me in a legendary band like that, I would want to be making those decisions.  I am kind of a hands-on guy anyways, but it just seems ridiculous.

I do agree BUT in the music biz it is the producer who decides the track listing usually. And Rubin is quite the dictator from what I've heard so it's pretty much always his way or no way.

Maybe a young band starting out but I wouldn't think its a usual occurrence that a producer has so much pull over a band the calibre of Black Sabbath.

[Charger]

Maybe a young band starting out but I wouldn't think its a usual occurrence that a producer has so much pull over a band the calibre of Black Sabbath.

Actually I think it has less to do about the caliber of the band and more about the caliber of the producer.

[Jack the Stripper]

Maybe a young band starting out but I wouldn't think its a usual occurrence that a producer has so much pull over a band the calibre of Black Sabbath.

Actually I think it has less to do about the caliber of the band and more about the caliber of the producer.

Depends how much the band believes in the way they think something should be and how much they're prepared to dig their heels in to get their way. By the sounds of it I don't think Sabbath put up too much resistance to Rubin though.

[Zzzptm]

There can be lots of discussions that influence a decision to release an album you're not happy with. Things like, "You want to sell records? Then you get back in there with the producer and do everything he says!" Big labels don't want to roll the dice, they want a sure thing. The money comes first, which is why the labels want a branded producer like ***RICK FRIGGIN RUBIN, DUDE!*** to produce the album.

Robert Fripp and Todd Rundgren were some of the first artists to go totally solo in terms of running their own production, distribution, and management. Maybe there's less media exposure for new releases, but there's also total freedom in artistic direction. That's a huge risk, total freedom, but it's an honest look at what the artist wants, not what got taken away or added to make a safe, commercial product.

[Jack the Stripper]

^^That can be true a lot of the times but in regards to Rick Rubin I think it was his own desire and relentless pursuit for years to produce a new Black Sabbath album going back to the abandoned sessions in 2001 rather than a label push.

[Zzzptm]

^^That can be true a lot of the times but in regards to Rick Rubin I think it was his own desire and relentless pursuit for years to produce a new Black Sabbath album going back to the abandoned sessions in 2001 rather than a label push.

So did Black Sabbath also have the same desire to be produced by Rick Rubin, or were they letting him be a superfan in the studio?

[Charger]

Well they might have had...Rubin was a pretty big name producer after all...

But after hearing the end result I do think (or hope anyways) that they might have regretted that a bit.

[Jack the Stripper]

^^That can be true a lot of the times but in regards to Rick Rubin I think it was his own desire and relentless pursuit for years to produce a new Black Sabbath album going back to the abandoned sessions in 2001 rather than a label push.

So did Black Sabbath also have the same desire to be produced by Rick Rubin, or were they letting him be a superfan in the studio?

I think he was that passionate about producing it they couldn't say no. And yes they allowed him to be a superfan. Sabbaths attention to detail has never been one of their strong suits, especially since they've all had their own seperate managers.

[Typhon]

Been listening to 13 quite a bit the last couple of days after doing my preferred and what I think is a much better track sequencing than what was put out.

I've also left off Loner & Live Forever. Not that I dislike those songs, I just like the two I've added more. Clocks in at 60 minutes, which is more than reasonable.


1) End Of The Beginning
2) Season Of The Dead
3) God Is Dead?
4) Zeitgeist
5) Age Of Reason

Side 2

6) Cry All Night
7) Methademic
8)Damaged Soul
9) Pariah
10) Dear Father

Try it and let me know what yous think 

Rick Rubin is an idiot btw 

Here is the way I would have done it:

13
side 1 (25:30)

1. End Of The Beginning
2. Naivete In Black
3. Zeitgeist
4. God Is Dead?

side 2 (24:05)

5. Live Forever
6. Loner
7. Dear Father (minus storm/bells)
8. Age Of Reason

The End
side 1 (23:10)

1. Season Of The Dead
2. Peace Of Mind
3. Isolated Man
4. Damaged Soul

side 2 (22:42)

5. Methademic
6. Cry All Night (minus storm/bells)
7. Pariah
8. Take Me Home/The End (includes storm/bells)

Notes:
1) Total time for 13 approximately 49:35.
2) Total time for The End approximately 45:52.
3) The final song is appropriately titled.
4) They started this entire journey with the storm/bells, and they finish the journey with the storm/bells.  Done.