What Went Wrong with the Martin albums?

[Zzzptm]

Of the five Martin-era albums, three are frequently singled out as candidates for the worst music put out under the Black Sabbath label: Headless Cross, Tyr, and Forbidden. On the other hand, Eternal Idol and Cross Purposes are pretty darn good albums, even if they're not the best Sabbath there was.

So why did the Martin era vary so wildly in terms of quality? When we look at the band members, quite a few have strong hard rock pedigrees, like Neil Murray, Cozy Powell, and Bobby Rondinelli. They all have Tony Iommi, for crying out loud! So why didn't they all work out better than they did? What went wrong?

[KiloDeltaCharlie]

Personally the 5 weakest albums are:

MOR
BA
SS
HC
F

Tyr is 8th on my all time list just behind CP and a couple of places ahead of EI.

What went wrong is maybe the song writing. EI was already written when Martin came on board and CP had the influence of Geezer. Having said that Tyr was all Tony and I still love it.

HC has 3 really strong songs but overall is quite generic and the lyrics are often laughable, I think F and BA could be vastly improved with a remix or remaster (or which ever it is!!).

[Charger]

I don't really think anything went wrong...I like those albums...all of them really more than I do the three Ozzy albums I don't even have to name.

Production on Eternal Idol, Headless Cross and Tyr are bit weak I suppose.

First side of Headless Cross is crazy good, but the second side isn't...it quite mirrors the situation with Sabotage actually. Tyr has Feels Good To Me which along with Am I Going Insane is Sabbath's weakest effort...

Cross Purposes is a fantastic album. How much of that was Geezer's influence...hard to know...it's not like his heart was in it at that time anyways...Hell he threatened to leave the band through out that tour he even made an ultimatum that if he isn't introduced separately during the opening song he'd quit...
I think actually the creative place Tony found himself during Dehumanizer and the new found power of that album was a bigger driving force than Geezer was at the time.

Forbidden has it's production and mixing problems but underneath all that there are some really really good songs...which I why I'm so hoping that one day these albums would see the light of day again and that Forbidden would get a re-mix.

[Jack the Stripper]

Its pretty simple what went wrong. Geezer wasn't there and Tony brought in a cheesy and predictable singer/songwriter in Tony Martin. The original members as well as the Geezer/Ronnie combo brought the very best out in Iommi.

[Zzzptm]

Its pretty simple what went wrong. Geezer wasn't there and Tony brought in a cheesy and predictable singer/songwriter in Tony Martin. The original members as well as the Geezer/Ronnie combo brought the very best out in Iommi.

Which would explain EI and CP rising to the top, they had different main writers. Maybe if Tony and Geezer had been constants after Born Again instead of just Tony, they would have had something better.

[Jack the Stripper]

Its pretty simple what went wrong. Geezer wasn't there and Tony brought in a cheesy and predictable singer/songwriter in Tony Martin. The original members as well as the Geezer/Ronnie combo brought the very best out in Iommi.

Which would explain EI and CP rising to the top, they had different main writers. Maybe if Tony and Geezer had been constants after Born Again instead of just Tony, they would have had something better.

Yeah funny that isn't it? And the one album we got from the MR lineup that was sandwiched in between the Martin era absolutely blew those albums out of the water.

We was truly robbed of more Sabbath greatness for not having subsequent follow up albums to Dehumanizer from the Dio lineup in the 90's.

[Zzzptm]

Funny thing was, Martin never got fired from the band. His phone just stopped ringing for a while.

[Jack the Stripper]

And he's still waiting for his phone to ring...


Another funny thing. Every Sabbath singer had successful singing careers outside of Sabbath except one.

[Charger]

Another funny thing. Every Sabbath singer had successful singing careers outside of Sabbath except one.

But he has done a shitload of briliant music over the years eventhough he never made a huge commercial success...In fact he's been the most prolific out of everyone.

Since Sabbath he's done 3 Guintini Project album, 3 Cage albums, one Solo album, one with Rondinelli, 2 with Empire and one with Silver Horses...that makes 10 albums since 1999! Ozzy's done 4, Ronnie did 4, Ian did 6...

And frankly all of those albums Tony did competes with all of them and beats some of them too!

[Zzzptm]

 ^ That's a tall claim... OK, so which post-1999 Martin album would you put up against which post-1999 Dio Album for a Martin win?

[Charger]

^ That's a tall claim... OK, so which post-1999 Martin album would you put up against which post-1999 Dio Album for a Martin win?

Hmmm...Cage 2 and 3 are fantastic so I'd probably put them right up there with Master Of The Moon...Guintini 2 and 4 are great too...I don't know if I'd rank any of them better than Master Of The Moon though...

But if we turn to Ozzy...I'd say all of them beat Black Rain and Scream which are horrible.

One Eye To Marocco from Ian is also much worse than any of Tony's stuff.

[Typhon]

What went wrong?

It's the formula.  It is nearly impossible to alter a perfect combination whilst maintaining the same excellence.  In general, the further they got away from the original 4, the worse it got.

[BOGBLAST]

I really like CP and EI but I wouldn't say the others are terrible. They all have great songs on them but maybe not enough to fill an album with quality tracks. As far as sound and vocals go I have no problem, except for the Forbidden mix. That early mix on YouTube sounds much better.

[Tyr66]

forget about this stupid Ozzy's comment and his "the band's farewell tour was not a pleasant experience for me" ,
the much more exciting information is that Tony is currently working on the remix of Forbidden.
http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/tony-iommi-doesnt-know-what-ozzy-osbourne-meant-when-he-said-he-didnt-have-a-great-time-on-black-sabbaths-final-tour/

[Billy Underdog]

Another funny thing. Every Sabbath singer had successful singing careers outside of Sabbath except one.

Dave Donato?

In fact he's been the most prolific out of everyone.

Since Sabbath he's done 3 Guintini Project album, 3 Cage albums, one Solo album, one with Rondinelli, 2 with Empire and one with Silver Horses...that makes 10 albums since 1999! Ozzy's done 4, Ronnie did 4, Ian did 6...

I think maybe Glenn Hughes have released an album or two too...