Who ripped off who?

[Billy Underdog]

So, they were both released in 1991, with less than a month between (counting Megadeths original appearance in Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey (July 9th), and Enter Sandman the single (July 30th)), but it's hard to say when Go To Hell was recorded. According to Wiki, Enter Sandman was recorded June 16th, just a little under a month before Bill & Ted was released, so i don't think it's too far fetched to guess Go To Hell was recorded first.
And given the animosity between the bands i don't accept it being a coincidence they both used the same prayer at the same time...

Any thoughts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taYN9Qv6ebo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7pqj8Be8kU

[Billy Underdog]

That being said, i think Metallicas use of it in a "fear of nightmares" theme is more clever than Megadeths general "i'm dying and going to hell"...

[Charger]

I've always pondered about the coincidence of that myself too...

But considering both songs were released so simultaneously it's really hard to prove that there was any ripping off from either....I suppose there is a small possibility that Metallica heard Go To Hell and then quickly decided to go and re-record Enter Sandman with that part included (I'm assuming that the song had been well recorded before the release) but it is bit of a far fetched idea.

Also I doubt considering the bad blood between the bands that they would have used any same crew while recording so that it could have been "leaked" that way either. BUT anything is possible.

I think this might be a question that will never be answered. I do have to say if it was just a coincidence it was a big one.

[Billy Underdog]

I think this might be a question that will never be answered.

Which is why it's a great threat topic

About the recording of ES, yeah, the music was most likely done a long time before, but Hetfield have said he's always writing the lyrics in the last minute before recording the vocals (it's even shown he's sitting writing some in the Year & A Half docu, and if memory serves right that was actually ES). They probably had some kinda idea for a "breakdown" there musically at an earlier point, though they also did alot of pre pro-tools cut&paste on that album.

And despite they didn't use any of the same crew, there's no reason it shouldn't have leaked, though. It wouldn't require more that one "disloyal" worker in the fold. And given Metallicas position in the Metal world at the time, i don't think it would've been any problem for them to check up on what others was doing, if they wanted.

[Axefiend]

Nah, I think it's just a coincidence. Kinda like the "Hero" and "Devil's Daughter" thing with Sabbath and Ozzy.

I certainly agree that Metallica's usage is far more clever, and that ES is a far better song than Megadeth's.

[Zzzptm]

Thought this was another Led Zeppelin thread, was about to move it to that part of the forum...

But seriously, folks...

I know stories of one band lifting another band's ideas happen along from time to time, but they usually involve them sharing studio time or touring together.

For touring together, there are lots of stories about big acts copying their opening acts and vice versa. The origins of "Hotel California" are in a Jethro Tull song, for example.

In the studio, I know about Mike Oldfield hanging around Magma's recording of MDK and then running off to do Tubular Bells before MDK went to the presses. In the 1950s, there are way more stories about races to be the first to record a particular track after hearing what a good song it was.

For this, though... the prayer itself is quite common and may have occurred independently to each band to include it. I know that both Supertramp and Iron Maiden both found a way to incorporate Churchill's "Never Surrender" speech in their works. Don't think that Maiden was copying Supertramp, though... it's just a really good speech.

[Billy Underdog]

For this, though... the prayer itself is quite common and may have occurred independently to each band to include it.

Ofcourse, it's certainly possible. But within more or less the same month..?

[Charger]

About the recording of ES, yeah, the music was most likely done a long time before, but Hetfield have said he's always writing the lyrics in the last minute before recording the vocals (it's even shown he's sitting writing some in the Year & A Half docu, and if memory serves right that was actually ES). They probably had some kinda idea for a "breakdown" there musically at an earlier point, though they also did alot of pre pro-tools cut&paste on that album.

That is most certainly plausable. Some of Hetfield's lyrics are so bad that he probably did write them in the last minute!

But still...the timing makes this rather tight still. Would Hetfield and the crew had enough time to hear Megadeth somewhere somehow and then decide to use the same prayer and have enough time to potentially re-record Enter Sandman?

Like ZZZ said that is a very common prayer and it fits to the whole theme of the song perfectly...more so infact than it does Go To Hell...so it might have just been a coincidence...This is fun to ponder about though!

[Jack the Stripper]

Impossible to really know without definitive time lines. Apparently Enter Sandman was the first song written for TBA but the last to receive lyrics. James came up with the lyrics sometime in the spring of 91. Whether the spoken prayer part was added later when they went in to record the song only Metallica and Bob Rock can answer that. I haven't watched A Year and a half in the life of Metallica in a long time but I can't recall the prayer part being mentioned in it.

There has been rumours for years that Mustaine had heard or obtained a recorded demo with lyrics and decided to use the prayer in Go To Hell just to piss Metallica off but this has never been confirmed.

Apparently a lot of Go To Hell was worked on in soundchecks on the Oxidations of the Nations tour of Japan in Feb of 91 which kinda makes sense at the song sounds closer to a Rust In Peace song than a Countdown To Extinction era song but have no idea when the lyrics were written and the completed/recorded song was submitted for the Ted & Bill movie.

I'm more inclined to think it was just a huge coincidence, I do also think that had Metallica ripped it off Megadeth Dave would've certainly let the world know about it.

[Zzzptm]

I'm more inclined to think it was just a huge coincidence, I do also think that had Metallica ripped it off Megadeth Dave would've certainly let the world know about it.

This.

I would say this rules out one direction of ripping off, if one happened.

[Billy Underdog]

I haven't watched A Year and a half in the life of Metallica in a long time but I can't recall the prayer part being mentioned in it.

It's even shown when the kid is in recording it. He says it wrong, ending with "pray the lord my soul to keep", everyone laughs, and the kid asks "what'd i do wrong?".

So the guys filming could probably share some insight as to when it was recorded too.

There has been rumours for years that Mustaine had heard or obtained a recorded demo with lyrics and decided to use the prayer in Go To Hell just to piss Metallica off but this has never been confirmed.

That would've been cool, and highly plausible given it's the bitter Mustaine.

I do also think that had Metallica ripped it off Megadeth Dave would've certainly let the world know about it.

Most definitely.

[Jack the Stripper]

It's even shown when the kid is in recording it. He says it wrong, ending with "pray the lord my soul to keep", everyone laughs, and the kid asks "what'd i do wrong?".

So the guys filming could probably share some insight as to when it was recorded too.
[/quote]Yeah you're right come to think of it. I have the original VHS tapes from back in the day but haven't watched it in over 20 years I reckon even though I bought an updated version on DVD a few years back. I probably should give it a whirl, that was a great fly on the wall doco back in the day.

[Billy Underdog]

Yeah you're right come to think of it. I have the original VHS tapes from back in the day but haven't watched it in over 20 years I reckon even though I bought an updated version on DVD a few years back. I probably should give it a whirl, that was a great fly on the wall doco back in the day.

Yeah, there was nothing like it yet. It was the coolest film, back when Metallica was the coolest thing. I think Lars once said that they wanted to keep doing that for every album. Sad it didn't happen again until the laughable St. Anger/Some Kind Of Monster... I'd love to see the making of the Loads, even Garage Inc and S/M.

[Jack the Stripper]

Yeah you're right come to think of it. I have the original VHS tapes from back in the day but haven't watched it in over 20 years I reckon even though I bought an updated version on DVD a few years back. I probably should give it a whirl, that was a great fly on the wall doco back in the day.

Yeah, there was nothing like it yet. It was the coolest film, back when Metallica was the coolest thing. I think Lars once said that they wanted to keep doing that for every album. Sad it didn't happen again until the laughable St. Anger/Some Kind Of Monster... I'd love to see the making of the Loads, even Garage Inc and S/M.

Yeah the Loads and Garage Inc would've been cool, from memory there is behind the scenes short doco in the extras on the S&M DVD? Also they did the making of song by song for Death Magnetic for a DVD that came with the coffin box as well as HWTSD which was released on their YouTube channel but they're not as in depth as AYAAHITLOM was. Always enjoy watching their creative process in the studio, especially James.

[Billy Underdog]

Yeah, there was some short behind-the-scene thing with S/M. I've seen the 4-hours uncut footage from DM, got kinda boring when it wasn't edited to a flowing film. Also, by then i had jumped off the 'Tallica-train, so interest wasn't the highest anymore.
It's cool to get to see the interactions of a band, and the inside politics. But with Some Kind Of Monster we got to see a bit much from the wrong side, i think...