Born Again: Supergroup, Solo, or Sabbath?

[Ted Sallis]

I think you have that backwards. The former members of Black Sabbath were great sidemen for the last incarnation of Gillan, on "Born Again". Although Iommi's no Bernie Torme, I think he was a big improvement on Janick Gers. 

That's a very interesting observation you've posted that I could ponder for awhile.  Actually, I consider Born Again very much a return to Sabbath's 'Old School' roots from the early 70's.  And according to Geezer Butler, the Born Again album wasn't supposed to be a Black Sabbath album.

Ted

[Zzzptm]

I think you have that backwards. The former members of Black Sabbath were great sidemen for the last incarnation of Gillan, on "Born Again". Although Iommi's no Bernie Torme, I think he was a big improvement on Janick Gers. 

That's a very interesting observation you've posted that I could ponder for awhile.  Actually, I consider Born Again very much a return to Sabbath's 'Old School' roots from the early 70's.  And according to Geezer Butler, the Born Again album wasn't supposed to be a Black Sabbath album.

Ted

Now, I knew Seventh Star was a solo project gone Sabbath, did not know that about Born Again. I thought it was supposed to be a BS album from the start...

[Zzzptm]

Follow up: anyone with info about the formative stuff leading up to the album is welcome to post the info or links here.

[Billy Underdog]

Gillan have said that the band he joined wasn't to be Black Sabbath at the time. So have Geezer. Exactly when and why it got changed is more in the dark (though one might be able to guess why...).

I too think this is Sabbath going back to their 70's sound, esp. with side 1.

[Zzzptm]

Gillan have said that the band he joined wasn't to be Black Sabbath at the time. So have Geezer. Exactly when and why it got changed is more in the dark (though one might be able to guess why...).

I too think this is Sabbath going back to their 70's sound, esp. with side 1.

You think it was a record company move (Warner Bros. being the same label that worked its magic for Seventh Star) ?

I actually think the sound has more in common with Gillan's Scarabus album and solo project than the actual Sabs of the Seventies. The muddy bass, for one thing...

[Billy Underdog]

You think it was a record company move (Warner Bros. being the same label that worked its magic for Seventh Star) ?

I actually think the sound has more in common with Gillan's Scarabus album and solo project than the actual Sabs of the Seventies. The muddy bass, for one thing...

Not necessarily the record company as such, but atleast someone at some point saw the benefits of using the Sabbath name.

Gillan have said several times that what he dislikes the most with the album is the bass sound, so i don't think that was by his choise. Apparently he didn't hear anything between the raw mix and the final cut.

[Zzzptm]

I agree that the sound changed between Gillan's last listen and the pressing of the albums.

But even then, the opening track is a lot like "Neon Knights"... in fact, I think it's more a continuation of the Dio-era arrangements on side one. "Keep It Warm" on side two, yes, that one for me hearkens back to Technical Ecstasy-type sounds.

[Billy Underdog]

The riffs of, and the way Disturbing The Priest and Zero The Hero are built musically is alot more 70's Sab than anything they did on the two previous albums.

[Zzzptm]

ZtH comes across to me as Geezer's attempt to rewrite the bass line for "Heaven and Hell."

DtP is VERY close to Gillan's "Scarabus". Play them side by side and note the similarities.

[Axefiend]

Not necessarily the record company as such, but at least someone at some point saw the benefits of using the Sabbath name.

I would think that the Don had everything to do with that!

The riffs of, and the way Disturbing The Priest and Zero The Hero are built musically is alot more 70's Sab than anything they did on the two previous albums.

Bill's drumming also hearkens back to what he did before H&H as well (more unorthodox and unpredictable drum patterns).

[Zzzptm]

True, Bill's back, red tights and all.



But I'm still thinking the sound is very much a product of the 80s, not the 70s. MTV was a thing and this music was made for that channel.

[Axefiend]

But I'm still thinking the sound is very much a product of the 80s, not the 70s. MTV was a thing and this music was made for that channel.

I think I read somewhere that when the album was being mixed, Bill was hoping they wouldn't go the "Big Gym Drums" route, and was quite disappointed when they did.
I think when you put Tony, Geezer and Bill in a room together to build up an album, more times than not, you'll get that classic 70's feel.

I love the "Unmixed Demo" (or whatever it's called) version of some of the songs from Born Again, The drums are much more natural sounding:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbNB3vZORRM

[Billy Underdog]

ZtH comes across to me as Geezer's attempt to rewrite the bass line for "Heaven and Hell."

Based on the same notes, but alot groovier.

Bill's drumming also hearkens back to what he did before H&H as well (more unorthodox and unpredictable drum patterns).

That too.

[Zzzptm]

Thanks, Axe, for finding that. The drums are definitely more 70s sounding there, less like they're trying to get their video on right after "Rock You Like a Hurricane".

Having just listened to the studio release all the way through, I'll allow that the sound only reaches back as far as NSD or TE, never to Sabotage or earlier. It's a Black Sabbath album, but from their middle dynasty, not the early dynasty.

[Charger]

I think Born Again combines the 70s stuff with the 80s stuff very well...It's like taking best from both worlds.

As far as the rest...well the most famous story from this time is from Ian who said this: "I went for a drink with Geezer Butler and Tony Iommi, got totally bladdered and Phil (Ian's manager at the time) phoned me up the next day and said "If you're gonna make career moves I think you should at least phone me first!" I said "I don't know what you're talking about." "Apparently yesterday you agreed to join Black Sabbath!! I think it's a good idea" "

So from this you can clearly get the idea it was gonna be BS all the time but things might have shifted and changed there a bit after that early stage...