Outrage Onstage and Offstage

[Zzzptm]

Whenever I'm reading an interview with a guy that toured with Ritchie Blackmore or an article about The Eagles, or anyone who has ever been between Keith Moon and a swimming pool, I know that, within a few paragraphs, someone is going to mention some insane pranking, rancor, or outright mayhem.

So, what's the straight dope on all the bat-biters and punch-throwers on the rock and roll stage?

For example, there's the story of Ritchie Blackmore and the ABC-TV camera at the California Jam that got too close...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcAjMB3hsq8

Go to 1:00 and watch the bashing... then go to 3:00 and get ready for the rest of the major property damage the band wreaked that evening. And it was evening because Deep Purple refused to take the stage until sundown, delaying the concert significantly and almost starting a riot...

[Billy Underdog]

Where to begin... There was a couple of kids being mischievous with their lighters in '92-'93...

[Zzzptm]

Where to begin... There was a couple of kids being mischievous with their lighters in '92-'93...

Go on... where was the mischief?

[Billy Underdog]

Where to begin... There was a couple of kids being mischievous with their lighters in '92-'93...

Go on... where was the mischief?

Something to do with gasoline and churches...

[Sabbabbath]

Well, this band IS pretty much an outrage itself:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurd_(band)
I have never even tried and listend to any of their music.

Same goes for this fascist dirtbag who killed a man, burned down several churches and keeps spreading his racist bullshit theories on Youtube:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varg_Vikernes

[Sabbabbath]

Where to begin... There was a couple of kids being mischievous with their lighters in '92-'93...

Go on... where was the mischief?

Something to do with gasoline and churches...

For anyone not familiar with the story, here's a start:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Norwegian_black_metal_scene

[Sabbabbath]

A very different kind of incident was the famous riot at a Sabbath concert in Milwaukee in 1980:
http://ultimateclassicrock.com/black-sabbath-milwaukee-riot/
The very incomplete show and parts of the riot were actually recorded on tape by someone in the audience.

[Sabbabbath]

Some more material:
http://www.vh1.com/news/213157/hard-rock-heavy-metal-concert-riots/

[Billy Underdog]

Well, this band IS pretty much an outrage itself:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurd_(band)
I have never even tried and listend to any of their music.

Same goes for this fascist dirtbag who killed a man, burned down several churches and keeps spreading his racist bullshit theories on Youtube:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varg_Vikernes

Both of those bands make shitty Black Metal, and are clueless as to what the Black Metal "ethos" at the time was.

I know people like Burzum because of the music, but distance the art from the artist. That doesn't help for me when the music sucks too...

[Billy Underdog]

Guns N' Roses've had their share of riots.

Also, the stage performance of G.G. Allin must be considered outrageous...

[Sabbabbath]

Both of those bands make shitty Black Metal, and are clueless as to what the Black Metal "ethos" at the time was.

? But Varg Vikernes IS Burzum and was totally part of the BM movement, wasn't he?

[Billy Underdog]

Both of those bands make shitty Black Metal, and are clueless as to what the Black Metal "ethos" at the time was.

? But Varg Vikernes IS Burzum and was totally part of the BM movement, wasn't he?

He is. "Part of"... Yeah, he was a kid hanging around, and was part of the churchburnings that became the staple of the movement. He kinda misunderstood the stuff the guys in Mayhem, Darkthrone and a few others had developed during the late 80's. He just took the whole "anti-establishment"-thing way too far, and also mixing it with his already racist points of view, also confusing others with his ideas.

Gotta give him cred for one thing, though; creating the "sawbuzz" guitar sound that goes along with BM. And he did spawn what is now known as Ambient BM.
Funny thing, though, i actually think burning a church is a very christian thing to do.

[Sabbabbath]

Both of those bands make shitty Black Metal, and are clueless as to what the Black Metal "ethos" at the time was.

? But Varg Vikernes IS Burzum and was totally part of the BM movement, wasn't he?

He is. "Part of"... Yeah, he was a kid hanging around, and was part of the churchburnings that became the staple of the movement. He kinda misunderstood the stuff the guys in Mayhem, Darkthrone and a few others had developed during the late 80's. He just took the whole "anti-establishment"-thing way too far, and also mixing it with his already racist points of view, also confusing others with his ideas.

Gotta give him cred for one thing, though; creating the "sawbuzz" guitar sound that goes along with BM. And he did spawn what is now known as Ambient BM.
Funny thing, though, i actually think burning a church is a very christian thing to do.

Well, I have never been into Black Metal, I look at it from the outside. From my perspective, it seems pretty consistent to become fascinated with Nazism and racism if one finds death and blood and cruelty truly fascinating and desirable. To be sure, I strongly and deeply dislike and disapprove of all that kind shit; it's just that I fail to see the strong contradiction that you seem to notice there. Also, Vikernes is not exactly the only Norwegian BM musician who has made racist or Nazi statements (or acted upon them). There are numerous examples, including the two bands that you said were 'misunderstood' by Vikernes. As for Mayhem:
"In this new phase [1994 ff.], racist statements made by Hellhammer (who spoke out against race mixing and foreigners in Norway)[30] and the use of Nazi imagery such as swastika flags in the rehearsal room,[31] the Totenkopf emblem[32][33] and band merchandise featuring the symbol of the military branch of Nasjonal Samling led to controversy and accusations of neo-Nazism." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayhem_(band)
And Darkthrone wrote, in a press release for the album "Transilvanian Hunger":
"We would like to state that Transilvanian Hunger stands beyond any criticism. If any man should attempt to criticize this LP, he should be thoroughly patronized for his obviously Jewish behavior."
https://noisey.vice.com/en_us/article/r7qdyr/happy-20th-birthday-to-darkthrones-controversial-black-metal-masterpiece-transilvanian-hunger
More here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_black_metal

To be sure, I do see a difference between a guy like Vikernes who cares even more about his Nazi ideology than he does about the music, and many other BM musicians, who focus more on the music and sometimes withdraw from hateful statements when they could get in the way of their career. It is pretty likely that Vikernes is more consequent in his political views, and promotes them much more openly and widely than many of the other guys. But still, from all I know, significant parts of the BM movement seem to have strong affinities to some or other kind of Neonazi, antisemitic and racist views. Accordingly, I don't think Vikernes 'misunderstood' the other guys - rather, he took some of their views much more seriously than they did.

As for church burnings, well, as long as nobody gets physically hurt, I certainly find church arson much less problematic than murders. I don't care if church burnings are "Christian" or not; but as a way of criticising and combating wrongdoings of official Christian churches, I believe it's a rather weak, possibly even counterproductive tool. Do you really think that a Christian believer who regularly goes to church will start questioning the teachings of their minister when it gets burned down? I guess the opposite is much more likely: when such things happen, many people will stronger than before tend to believe that satanism and anti-Christian activism is a real threat, and will be even less likely than before to question church policy etc. Anyway, I suspect that those church burnings and their perpetrators don't really deserve your sympathy. Honestly, if the movement had really been about an emancipatory criticism of the dominant groups tendencies in Christianity, then it would have included criticisms of the huge patriarchal and colonial heritage (and ongoing practice) of the churches. Now, I may have missed something, but the BM movement has never struck me as being pro-gender or racial equality. The statements and activities I have seen seem to suggest quite the opposite. Accordingly, sympathising with arsonists because they are against the church is similar to sympathising with the IS because it opposes Western colonialism. The choice between such parties is not really a choice. 

[Zzzptm]

Ummm...  how did this turn into a Black Metal philosophy thread?



Maybe that should go to another thread, but we'll keep the rocker excesses here. Since Billy is involved, I'm sure he knows the drill:

  and then   

Don't worry, I'll kick it off, since I think it's interesting stuff, but I'll start it in the Life Universe Everything part of the boards.

Back to the excesses, there was the time the Beatles were in Hamburg and had some hygiene issues...

https://books.google.com/books?id=hWofAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA142&lpg=PA142&dq=beatles+shredded+wheat#v=onepage&q=beatles%20shredded%20wheat&f=false

[Billy Underdog]

Well, I have never been into Black Metal, I look at it from the outside. From my perspective, it seems pretty consistent to become fascinated with Nazism and racism if one finds death and blood and cruelty truly fascinating and desirable.

Euronymous/Øystein Aarseth, the guitarist in Mayhem and sort of a centerfigure in the movement (and the guy Vikernes killed) was actually an extreme leftist.
That was the whole deal, extremity.
Hellhammer have said some stupid things, and he's the one i try to ignore the most. About Darkthrone, they were kids, and it's hard to translate the small semantic differences in some of these words. They probably didn't even know the full ramifications of what they were saying, it was just anything shocking.

None of them burned churches as a christion act, though. It was highly anti-christion, after all they were "satanists". I',m probably the only one seeing it a christian act...

Outrageous: The Beatles in Hamburg popping so many speed pills blue goo started running out of John Lennons nose...