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ROCK AND ROLL! => Black Sabbath => Black Sabbath General => Topic started by: Zzzptm on February 14, 2018, 10:09:56 PM
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I just read a comment on an article that said Wendy Dio and Sharon Osbourne were cut from the same cloth, meaning it in a negative way. Sort of the way people talk about Yoko Ono, as well. It made me wonder why it is that we tend to think negatively of the women in the lives of rock stars, particularly when they exercise any sort of business sense or executive acumen.
So why is it we're so ready to hate or blame a band's breakup on the women near to it? Is there reality to that thinking, or is it merely an extension of the age-old sexist saw, "cherchez la femme"?
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Oh, i'm so sick and tired of Yoko getting the blame for Beatles splitting up. Yeah, it was probably annoying for the others that Lennon wanted her beside him in the studio all the time, but the idea that she was trying to impose any ideas to their music is simply bullshit. She did contribute a bit to Revolution 9, originally Harrisons idea, but that's it. That ofcourse led to the Two Virgins album.
It was rather a matter of the guys having literally been living on top of each others since '58, was getting tired of each others and had grown apart.
As for Sharon, there's both good and bad. She did save Ozzys life in '79/'80 and made his solo career. And she've been kind to their hired guns in the 90's, even paying for Mike Inez' flight ticket to go audition for Alice In Chains, telling Rob Trujillo it would be better for him to go join Metallica and letting Zakk Wylde come and go more or less as he pleased. In the 80's on the other hand, what she did and is still doing to Daisley, Kerslake and Soussan is unforgivable. Pure greed. The two first albums that made Ozzy the star he is is largely due to Daisley and Kerslake, both for the way they play, the two of them jamming out the tunes with Rhoads and for Daisley writing the lyrics. And having Bordin and Trujillo re-record the classics is... I'm speechless. They've admitted to not liking doing it themselves too...
As for Wendy, don't know too much about her conduct, but cudos to her for sticking in a pro forma marriage with a guy who (atleast according to rumours) preferred playing on the other team, so it was basically more a business relationship than a marriage. But it seems she've been good for Dio. Don't know for some of his band members, though...
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Well, Gillan was a jerk to his solo band in the 80s, right before he bolted out the back door to join Sabbath. My guess is if he had a wife in the picture, she'd be blamed for what was, essentially, his bad management.
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Most likely. Or his tonsils...
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I think that mysoginist sterotypes often shape people's perception in fundamental ways. They usually don't create a picture totally disconnected from reality; rather, the affect the way that reality is interpreted. Thus, it does seem that Sharon Osbourne is a hard businesswoman who has thus affected several (probably many) people's lives in bad ways. If she were a man, most people would either not care or even give her (him, in that scenario) credit for that (except if they were themselves among those affected in bad ways). But as a woman, she should not do such things; instead, she should do things that are socially associated with being a woman - maybe wash her husband's clothes and dishes, raise their children, look pretty, be sexually available for him, faithful to him and whatnot. At the same time, her husband is free to fuck around (and come penitently back to her if it was too much or obvious) and do whatever he pleases to fulfill the male crazy rockstar image. And whenever he and other band members fail to speak in person to each other like grown-ups again, and thus don't manage to solve their disputes and misunderstandings, resulting in another live tour or album recording without the original drummer, who is responsable of course? His super-powerful wife of course!
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^^^ Actually, i was supposed to say it's clear she've learned her business from her infamous father, but it slipped my mind... :)
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Well no one can deny that Sharon has used some very questionable tactics over the years some that have been out right evil. She is also the epitome of money hunger. She is so greedy it's not even funny...and the things she's forced Ozzy to do just to get some more money...my goodness.
But on the other hand she is one savvy business person too. But the thing is she is willing to do pretty much what ever it takes for things to go her way (and by her way I mean to fill her pockets with shitload of the all mighty dollar.) in everything she gets her hands on. Also it is clear she doesn't play well with others...she is a complete control freak.
As for Wendy...well she is completely different. Business person too no doubt but she has never done anything that even comes close to Sharon. She has also always had a nice person reputation in the business. She has gotten a lot of grief with the Dio Disciples thing...some of which is totally without bases...it's not like she's trying to make tons of money on Ronnie's memory...as the truth is every single Dio Disciples tour has been totally non profit. They've pretty much calculated the ticket prices to be equal to the costs of touring...and all the merch profits go to Stand Up And Shout Cancer Fund so...
Don't know a thing about Yoko...
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^^^ Actually, i was supposed to say it's clear she've learned her business from her infamous father, but it slipped my mind... :)
Right. Don Arden is infamous, but nobody vilifies him as a bad-tempered shrew that can't keep to her place. Badfinger's manager was rotten to the core, but doesn't get near the sneers that Yoko or Sharon or Wendy get.
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...and the things she's forced Ozzy to do just to get some more money...my goodness.
How exactly has she "forced" Ozzy to do anything? And how do you know? Many people keep claiming that Sharon "forces" Ozzy to do this or that (usually things that the people who are talking dislike). I have never heard any proof though. As long as there isn't any proof, there's no good reason to prefer the theory that Sharon forced Ozzy over the alternative theories that Ozzy forced Sharon or that both decided together.
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How exactly has she "forced" Ozzy to do anything? And how do you know? Many people keep claiming that Sharon "forces" Ozzy to do this or that (usually things that the people who are talking dislike). I have never heard any proof though. As long as there isn't any proof, there's no good reason to prefer the theory that Sharon forced Ozzy over the alternative theories that Ozzy forced Sharon or that both decided together.
Oh come on...I think a certain tv show called The Osbournes is all the example anyone needs. There's a lot of other stuff too...certain tours with certain bands etc.
I don't think Ozzy has a lot of say in any of the business side of his career...but on the other hand I don't think he minds that either...Ozzy's never really been a leader he's always been a follower. Has Sharon taken advantage of that...ofcourse she has. But again does Ozzy really mind...well that's something only Ozzy himself could answer.
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^^^ Actually, i was supposed to say it's clear she've learned her business from her infamous father, but it slipped my mind... :)
Right. Don Arden is infamous, but nobody vilifies him as a bad-tempered shrew that can't keep to her place. Badfinger's manager was rotten to the core, but doesn't get near the sneers that Yoko or Sharon or Wendy get.
Hanging people out of the window several floors above the ground to get their money sound pretty villifying to me... Or lying to the parrents of the underaged Small Faces guys that they were heroin junkies, so he had to take care of their cash. But i get your point.
...and the things she's forced Ozzy to do just to get some more money...my goodness.
How exactly has she "forced" Ozzy to do anything? And how do you know? Many people keep claiming that Sharon "forces" Ozzy to do this or that (usually things that the people who are talking dislike). I have never heard any proof though. As long as there isn't any proof, there's no good reason to prefer the theory that Sharon forced Ozzy over the alternative theories that Ozzy forced Sharon or that both decided together.
There were times in the early 80's where Oz didn't wanna go onstage due to his anxiety, but she forced him. He even shaved his head to avoid it, but she made him wear a wig instead...
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Re. Sharon telling Ozzy to get out there, even with a wig: That's called being a good road manager. You get the talent on stage and get them to put on a show, no matter how out of their mind they may be, pick up the pieces after the encore. If cancer funding had a dollar for every time a manager did something terrible to get a musician to perform, we'd have a cure by now. These are guys that will offer up drugs to change moods, lie, shout, berate, manipulate, do all kinds of rotten stuff to get the band up there so the promoter doesn't withhold paying out.
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No matter how harsh I maybe towards Sharon (which I do find justified) there is absolutely no denying that Ozzy's career wouldn't be what it is now without her.
She made him a lasting star there is no doubt about it. But some of the things she did to achieve that were out right vile.
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How exactly has she "forced" Ozzy to do anything? And how do you know? Many people keep claiming that Sharon "forces" Ozzy to do this or that (usually things that the people who are talking dislike). I have never heard any proof though. As long as there isn't any proof, there's no good reason to prefer the theory that Sharon forced Ozzy over the alternative theories that Ozzy forced Sharon or that both decided together.
Oh come on...I think a certain tv show called The Osbournes is all the example anyone needs. There's a lot of other stuff too...certain tours with certain bands etc.
I don't think Ozzy has a lot of say in any of the business side of his career...but on the other hand I don't think he minds that either...Ozzy's never really been a leader he's always been a follower. Has Sharon taken advantage of that...ofcourse she has. But again does Ozzy really mind...well that's something only Ozzy himself could answer.
The fact that "The Osbournes" did happen proves nothing in itself, except that somehow Sharon and Ozzy came to do it. It may well have been Sharon's idea to do "The Osbournes", but what evidence is there to prove that she "forced" him? She might as well suggested it and he followed her suggestion. Quite likely so, because from a carreer perspective it was a great idea. The notion that she "forced" him logically presupposes that he didn't wanna do it. Is that the case? I don't say that's impossible, it's just that I would like to see some evidence.
Sharon has been paying a huge price to be with Ozzy, including the situation where he tried to kill her, and all his fucking around and her being humiliated in public about it. Has she taken advantage of him? I guess yes. Has he taken advantage of her? Definitely yes. (EDIT: Ah, I see you pointed in that direction too in your latest comment.)
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I can imagine very well that the conversation about The Osbournes went something like this:
Sharon:
Hey Ozzy, we're gonna do this tv show for MTV
Ozzy:
Huh?...What?
Sharon:
Tv Show for Music Television
Ozzy:
Huh....?
Sharon:
Yeah.
Ozzy:
Okay?
:D
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I can imagine very well that the conversation about The Osbournes went something like this:
Sharon:
Hey Ozzy, we're gonna do this tv show for MTV
Ozzy:
Huh?...What?
Sharon:
Tv Show for Music Television
Ozzy:
Huh....?
Sharon:
Yeah.
Ozzy:
Okay?
:D
In the meantime, Sharon's also been about building her own brand, not as someone defined by her marriage to Ozzy, but as who she is in and of herself. Hosting talk shows, judging things like X Factor's Got Talented Idols, if Ozzy should up and outright vanish with all things Ozzy-related, she's still got her own mettle to rely upon.
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In the meantime, Sharon's also been about building her own brand, not as someone defined by her marriage to Ozzy, but as who she is in and of herself. Hosting talk shows, judging things like X Factor's Got Talented Idols, if Ozzy should up and outright vanish with all things Ozzy-related, she's still got her own mettle to rely upon.
As well as trying to write some books...
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I can imagine very well that the conversation about The Osbournes went something like this:
Sharon:
Hey Ozzy, we're gonna do this tv show for MTV
Ozzy:
Huh?...What?
Sharon:
Tv Show for Music Television
Ozzy:
Huh....?
Sharon:
Yeah.
Ozzy:
Okay?
:D
I am pretty sure that's how it happened! :D
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I am pretty sure that's how it happened! :D
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:excited:
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Nice to see people have stopped calling her $haron. That was bloody annoying, lol.
Women in power are evil! The Fox news folks used that (subconscious) "fact" to great effect in demonizing Hillary Clinton over the years.
Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
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Nice to see people have stopped calling her $haron. That was bloody annoying, lol.
Women in power are evil! The Fox news folks used that (subconscious) "fact" to great effect in demonizing Hillary Clinton over the years.
I've always thought it curious that a woman can play business "hard-ball" and be called a shrew, while a man doing the same is called shrewd.
RE: Zzz's Badfinger comment - Pete shot the wrong person...
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Nice to see people have stopped calling her $haron. That was bloody annoying, lol.
Women in power are evil! The Fox news folks used that (subconscious) "fact" to great effect in demonizing Hillary Clinton over the years.
Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
While I have some objections to Clinton, they're from her actual policy positions and not because she has a gender that conservatives don't generally approve of.
And, yeah, Badfinger's manager is worth a thread of his own, he was that horrible.
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Nice to see people have stopped calling her $haron. That was bloody annoying, lol.
Women in power are evil! The Fox news folks used that (subconscious) "fact" to great effect in demonizing Hillary Clinton over the years.
Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
While I have some objections to Clinton, they're from her actual policy positions and not because she has a gender that conservatives don't generally approve of.
Same here. :-) And if Clinton really were a feminist (in words and deeds), as some of her opponents and fans claim, I would actually like her more.
People in power in the world we live in tend to be assholes, because it's hard to get into power as long as you're a good person, and the fight for power tends to facilitate the worst parts of people's character. Still, women in power tend to get hated for the mere fact that they're are women in power.
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On a side note, I feel that having been exposed for a few months to the lunatics that are trying to rule a certain BS forum makes me a little uncritical towards this forum. :-) Thus, I find myself enjoying pretty much any discussion simply because the people involved in it are acting reasonably, not attacking anyone, not claiming that science and logic are dispensable, not bragging about gods and gifts and telephone calls etc. :partay:
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On a side note, I feel that having been exposed for a few months to the lunatics that are trying to rule a certain BS forum makes me a little uncritical towards this forum. :-) Thus, I find myself enjoying pretty much any discussion simply because the people involved in it are acting reasonably, not attacking anyone, not claiming that science and logic are dispensable, not bragging about gods and gifts and telephone calls etc. :partay:
Thanks for the call and the CDs, Linda. God Bless!
:rofl:
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On a side note, I feel that having been exposed for a few months to the lunatics that are trying to rule a certain BS forum makes me a little uncritical towards this forum. :-) Thus, I find myself enjoying pretty much any discussion simply because the people involved in it are acting reasonably, not attacking anyone, not claiming that science and logic are dispensable, not bragging about gods and gifts and telephone calls etc. :partay:
Thanks for the call and the CDs, Linda. God Bless!
:rofl:
Wow, that comment made me wince! Don't retraumatise me, dammit! :naughty: :))
Anyway, great call yesterday. Sent you a Pm. Got Phil's message too. Thanks Phil!!! Sent Sheyla, Laura, Stan, Murad and, most importantly, Jesus some huge and expensive gifts. Seventh Star is the best Sabbath album ever. Sphinx is the best Sabbath song ever, and logic is for wimps. :wall:
OK, back to the topic, more or less:
"Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test."
(Robert Green Ingersoll (http://"http://www.bartleby.com/400/prose/1827.html") - the quotation is often falsely attributed to Abraham Lincoln)
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Wow, that comment made me wince! Don't retraumatise me, dammit! :naughty:
Sorry, just had to. I'm just in that mood today... ;)
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Back to the discussion of power, I'm working through the classic British comedy "Yes Minister" and "Yes, Prime Minister". I always enjoy revisiting the series. It's basically a study of power, how some people seek power in fame and others seek power in control. There's crossover, of course, but at the end of the day a person is either into power to get glory or into power to get stuff. Neither is willing to let go of any power, once gained.
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Back to the discussion of power, I'm working through the classic British comedy "Yes Minister" and "Yes, Prime Minister". I always enjoy revisiting the series. It's basically a study of power, how some people seek power in fame and others seek power in control. There's crossover, of course, but at the end of the day a person is either into power to get glory or into power to get stuff. Neither is willing to let go of any power, once gained.
Makes sense to me. I would like to add, though, that there are also people who don't want much power over others, and thus consciously decide to avoid it.
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Back to the discussion of power, I'm working through the classic British comedy "Yes Minister" and "Yes, Prime Minister". I always enjoy revisiting the series. It's basically a study of power, how some people seek power in fame and others seek power in control. There's crossover, of course, but at the end of the day a person is either into power to get glory or into power to get stuff. Neither is willing to let go of any power, once gained.
Makes sense to me. I would like to add, though, that there are also people who don't want much power over others, and thus consciously decide to avoid it.
They're the ones who wind up suffering under those that sought power. I honestly think that running a country should be a sentence, not an election result.
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They're the ones who wind up suffering under those that sought power. I honestly think that running a country should be a sentence, not an election result.
Agreed. Or atleast done by lottery the way some of the original democracy did it.
I'm all for how the "general right for voting" have grown forth the last 150 yrs, crossing gender and social status, but the fact that we today allow people who have absolutely NO idea about politics to vote is horrifying. That's one of the reasons we end up with the leaders we have...
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A lot has been said of this so-called power Sharon has over Ozzy.
Has she been able to keep him away from hard drugs (No)
Has she been able to keep him away from booze (No)
Has she been able to stop him having affairs with other women (No)
How much control do you think she really has then?
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A lot has been said of this so-called power Sharon has over Ozzy.
Has she been able to keep him away from hard drugs (No)
Has she been able to keep him away from booze (No)
Has she been able to stop him having affairs with other women (No)
How much control do you think she really has then?
She can, um... er... ahhh...
Very good point, sir! :smug:
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A lot has been said of this so-called power Sharon has over Ozzy.
Has she been able to keep him away from hard drugs (No)
Has she been able to keep him away from booze (No)
Has she been able to stop him having affairs with other women (No)
How much control do you think she really has then?
She can, um... er... ahhh...
Very good point, sir! :smug:
Indeed! Given how smart and rich and influential Sharon Osbourne is in general, her lack of control over her husband in several respects is pretty remarkable.
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What if John Michael Ozzy married a purebred Russian teutonic languages scholaress-PHD in language studies?
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What if John Michael Ozzy married a purebred Russian teutonic languages scholaress-PHD in language studies?
She'd get blamed for anything and everything, just the same.
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John Michael Ozzy would get rid of his brummy prononciation.
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John Michael Ozzy would get rid of his brummy prononciation.
And she'd be criticized for it...
"I loved Ozzy before that lady made him sound all posh!"
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And she'd be criticized for it...
"I loved Ozzy before that lady made him sound all posh!"
Why? All the purebred Russians love posh prononciation madly.
And John Michael Ozzy would learn Old and Middle English, then die Deutchesprache, then svensk spark, then bokmal og nynorsk and would have no problems while talking to Nordmonna.
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And she'd be criticized for it...
"I loved Ozzy before that lady made him sound all posh!"
Why? All the purebred Russians love posh prononciation madly.
And John Michael Ozzy would learn Old and Middle English, then die Deutchesprache, then svensk spark, then bokmal og nynorsk and would have no problems while talking to Nordmonna.
The Brits would be the ones to throw rocks.