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Author Topic: Grunge: Metal or not?  (Read 10033 times)

Billy Underdog

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Grunge: Metal or not?
« on: May 08, 2018, 07:34:33 AM »
Quote from: Charger on May 08, 2018, 02:45:25 AM
down goes the killer of metal

Just explain this one thing to me: How can the most Metal album by a band who was part of a genre that helped getting Metal back on track after the rape it endured during the 80's, atleast from the mainstream point of view, somehow "kill Metal"? Have you even listened to the album (as opposed to the pop hits from the later albums)?
It sounds like you've just jumped on the bandwagon of misunderstanding without actually having heard any of the material. Yes, Grunge killed everything that was fake and wrong about Metal and put it back on it's right path.

And this isn't just the usual banter about the two of us not always having the same musical taste, i'm genuinely curious.
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Charger

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Re: Grunge vs Metal
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2018, 08:00:06 AM »
Quote from: Billy Underdog on May 08, 2018, 07:34:33 AM
Yes, Grunge killed everything that was fake and wrong about Metal and put it back on it's right path.

/OT
Well that's just utter bullshit and you know it. There ain't nothing metal about grunge never was never will be. Grunge was hand crafted to be radio/mtv friendly commercial teenage boohoo angst shit that made metal pretty much disappear and all the classic bands suffered from it.

Grunge is/was the biggest cancer the rock world has ever had to endure. And no matter what anyone says my hatered towards that genre will never end.

A lot of people praised Soundgarden (for example) so I tried to listen to that but no...not my cup of tea eventhough that probably is the most "metal" of all of the grunge bands...and perhaps I hate them the least.

\OT
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Zzzptm

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Re: Grunge vs Metal
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2018, 08:47:23 AM »
I'll start with the Soundgarden part... I remember reading that Soundgarden said of themselves, "We play music like Black Sabbath, but without the parts that suck." I thought, OK, I'll give 'em a try.

Well, they played *some* stuff like Black Sabbath and found ways to make parts that sucked, but in a different way. I'm with Charger, I just could not get into Soundgarden the way I wanted to. I've tried to go back to their albums and give 'em a spin in my later years, but there's no undiscovered spark to be found in them.

Pearl Jam drove me up the wall. Eddie Vedder's vocals have always grated on me. I can respect some of their statements and philosophies and stuff, but the music? Not want.

Nirvana had the most punkified sound of the grunge bands, but I think they got overplayed here in the states, especially the stuff from their last two albums. Beyond that, I just didn't get into that kind of punk. I liked the punk of The Damned, The Clash, Motorhead, guys like that. Clean and fast, not muddy and fast.

Alice in Chains - never once liked their stuff. "Man in a Box" made me switch radio stations or turn off the radio faster than any other song.

All the great metal of the late 80s... squandered... because of grunge. Yes, I know thrash probably wasn't the best radio-friendly format... but that's radio's fault, not thrash's. Radio-friendly by the 1990s meant "just good enough so people keep listening, but not so good that they overshadow the commercials."

What I find interesting is that there are stoner bands that have vocalists that sound like Chris Cornell from Soundgarden - who was an EXCELLENT vocalist, in spite of the material he worked with - and those bands sound all right. Those bands are like Soundgarden without the parts that suck, to make an ironic paraphrase.
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JSTHECONQUEROR

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Re: Grunge vs Metal
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2018, 10:12:00 AM »
There is nothing metal about Grunge huh?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU4L6THYAbM
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Billy Underdog

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Re: Grunge vs Metal
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2018, 10:27:34 AM »
Quote from: Charger on May 08, 2018, 08:00:06 AM
There ain't nothing metal about grunge never was never will be. Grunge was hand crafted to be radio/mtv friendly commercial teenage boohoo angst shit that made metal pretty much disappear and all the classic bands suffered from it.

No, now you're talking about the later poppier "Seattle sound", which ofcourse had it's origins in Grunge, but really had nothing to do with it.
Pretty obvious you've just heard the radio hits and haven't given the albums their due time, in other words; you don't really know what you're talking about. No, Pearl Jam and the latter two albums by Nirvana doesn't have much Metal in them, because it's not Grunge.
Grunge was an underground thing in Seattle in the late 80's, guys who played shitty bars for 50 of their friends because very few famous bands bothered to go touring that far north-west. Influenced by the Punk ethos, but sonically much more Metal.
Alice In Chains is probably the most Metal of the more known bands, but Man In The Box was a suck-o-rama that doesn't represent them at all.
Those quotes about Soundgarden wanting to sound like Sabbath and Zeppelin was a media thing, actually they were more influenced by Kiss and Ted Nugent, go figure... But it's all in the downtuned E-string, which gives it that punch. A trick they picked up from Buzz Osbourne of Melvins. Though not being Grunge as such, they were more the big brothers of Grunge, and even helped starting a new Metal sub-genre in Sludge Metal.

So, yeah, they weren't about dressing up, playing as many notes as possible and singing about pussy or dungeons & dragons (none of which is really Metal anyway), they were more about the riffing, the groove and the attitude.
After all these guys had grown up listening to 70's Metal/Hard Rock, Motörhead, Venom, Celtic Frost, even Thrash. And they did alot of warm-up gigs for Thrash bands.

I know it's a matter of taste for you, Charg, you prefer the poseur type Metal. But you can't disagree that bands like Pantera, Sepultura, Cannibal Corpse, Morbid Angel, Napalm Death, Darkthrone and Mayhem are Metal just because you don't like 'em, now, can you?

I think part of the reason you have desided not to like Grunge is because of it's connotations with Punk. Guess what; Iron Maiden was inspired by Punk. All "NWOBHM"-bands was. More so the Thrash-bands, and their descendants in the various Extreme Metal genres. Metallica, Slayer and Anthrax wouldn't sound the way they do/did if they weren't huge fans of Punk...

And i'm changing the thread name to something more fitting...
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 10:42:19 AM by Billy Underdog »
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Billy Underdog

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Re: Grunge vs Metal
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2018, 10:31:57 AM »
Good call, JS.

Another one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EV2OTBh7Y
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Charger

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Re: Grunge vs Metal
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2018, 10:46:20 AM »
Quote from: Billy Underdog on May 08, 2018, 10:27:34 AM
So, yeah, they weren't about dressing up, playing as many notes as possible and singing about pussy or dungeons & dragons (none of which is really Metal anyway), they were more about the riffing, the groove and the attitude.

:haha3:

Ah no...no no no no
 :nono:
:nono:

As I said it was about making songs fitting for mtv...by design to reach the teenage angsters. That's all it was.

Quote from: Billy Underdog on May 08, 2018, 10:27:34 AM
I know it's a matter of taste for you, Charg, you prefer the poseur type Metal. But you can't disagree that bands like Pantera, Sepultura, Cannibal Corpse, Morbid Angel, Napalm Death, Darkthrone and Mayhem are Metal just because you don't like 'em, now, can you?

Poseur type of metal??? What in the name of holy fuck are you talking about now??? That's just...I mean...
 :zomgwtfbbq:

Also who said I don't like Pantera? The death metal stuff...that I don't like.



Quote from: Billy Underdog on May 08, 2018, 10:27:34 AM
I think part of the reason you have desided not to like Grunge is because of it's connotations with Punk. Guess what; Iron Maiden was inspired by Punk. All "NWOBHM"-bands was. More so the Thrash-bands, and their descendants in the various Extreme Metal genres. Metallica, Slayer and Anthrax wouldn't sound the way they do/did if they weren't huge fans of Punk...

And i'm changing the thread name to something more fitting...

I also don't really see any ANY connection between punk and grunge. Punk is about speed and doing stuff as far away from commercial side of things possible where as grunge is pretty much the complete opposite. Also I've said this before I've got nothing against punk....not fully my kind of music but I can easily say that it's about 8 gazillion million times closer to metal than grunge can ever even dream of.


Like I said this is my standing on the matter...and no ammount of jibber jabber will change that.
I
HATE
GRUNGE

That's just like...my opinion, man.

And I do just have to awesome ZZZ for sharing my views on this cause that's just....awesome.  8)
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Billy Underdog

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Re: Grunge: Metal or not?
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2018, 11:05:37 AM »
Quote from: Charger on May 08, 2018, 10:46:20 AM
As I said it was about making songs fitting for mtv...by design to reach the teenage angsters. That's all it was.

Once again; i say you've misunderstood Grunge from Seattle pop...  :doh:

Listen to the album that kicked this discussion off (Bleach) and name one tune that's fitting for Mtv...

And you know what i meant about poseur Metal... ;)
Ok, you like Pantera. Not really my point, though. All the bands i mentioned are Metal, despite you not liking them... (this is called spoon-feeding, people)

Funny that you don't seem to remember saying you don't like Punk, though. Last time we had this convo you said the reason you don't like Grunge was because they couldn't play their instruments due to being inspired by Punk... (or something along those lines).

But if nothing else you've just proved you're biased and have no interest in revisiting your misunderstood perceptions based on a small fad that really had nothing to do with the genre in question in the first place. But, hey. We can't all be open minded... :)

As if Hard Rock and Metal haven't always played up to the (mostly male) teenage angst... :rofl:
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 11:13:35 AM by Billy Underdog »
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Zzzptm

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Re: Grunge: Metal or not?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2018, 11:43:00 AM »
OK, I listened to the Soundgarden and Alice in Chains posted in this thread... and I'm not impressed enough to say I like the stuff, but I'm also not switching them off the radio/playlist just because they turn up. But they're really not my speed... I guess they're just over the line when it comes to what I'm looking for in a song. Although I'm not a big Hüsker Dü fan, that's more to my liking than these tracks. So what's the difference?

Well, a Hüsker Dü track usually brings a little more speed and a little more gothiness in its sound and style... that fast drumming with guitar chords that can sustain or fade, that's really good stuff in my book.

I'll go ahead and give Bleach a go, as I was judging it by its brethren albums, which I really didn't care for. If I can get through the whole thing and find something positive, I'll be honest and give it a point on the H/H game. :)

And if not, I'll be just as honest and go through what turned me off.
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Tyr66

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Re: Grunge: Metal or not?
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2018, 12:06:30 PM »
Just to have a complete opinion, I will not listen to a whole discography of a band or another which I have heard several titles that, each time, I didn't enjoy. the only band I had a few vibrations for is Soundgarden, because of Chris Cornell's exceptional voice. A great talent.
Everything else leaves me cold.
the only indisputable positive thing that we can attribute to grunge is to have killed the shameful and embarrassing Glam Metal, now called Hair Metal but sadly didn't eradicate Bon Jovi or other Def Leppard. This movement didn't kill Metal at all , just all those lady wannabe posers which is a great thing.
Grunge seems to me more like a sub-genre of Rock but not Metal.
I don't like bands look, artworks ( a poor three dog, come on ...) , the most possible cheap attitude, these throbbing voices ... not my thing.
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Re: Grunge: Metal or not?
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2018, 12:55:00 PM »
The Melvins
Alice In Chains
Soundgarden
All are metal bands. Type their name and metal-archives.com and their will be a page. Case closed.
Joking aside, this is always a riveting subject. I am a 90's kid who grew up with this music on the radio and bands like AIC, Nirvana and Soundgarden shaped my musical taste and helped me discover bands like Black Sabbath. Surely things would be different if Poison and Cinderella were on the radio in my youth. I am so thankful the grunge movement kicked those ladies to the curb!

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Tyr66

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Re: Grunge: Metal or not?
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2018, 01:17:51 PM »
Quote from: JSTHECONQUEROR on May 08, 2018, 12:55:00 PM
The Melvins
Alice In Chains
Soundgarden
All are metal bands. Type their name and metal-archives.com and their will be a page. Case closed.
Joking aside, this is always a riveting subject. I am a 90's kid who grew up with this music on the radio and bands like AIC, Nirvana and Soundgarden shaped my musical taste and helped me discover bands like Black Sabbath. Surely things would be different if Poison and Cinderella were on the radio in my youth. I am so thankful the grunge movement kicked those ladies to the curb!
You nail it JS. Everything is here, in this magical moment of our lives called
adolescence or teenage years. This crucial time when we absorb and feel things like never before and after.
I'm a kid from the early 80's: AC / DC, Motörhead, Trust, Van Halen, Iron Maiden, Saxon, Tygers of Pan Tang, Tank, Rose Tattoo, Scorpions, Demon, and of course Black Sabbath - the Power era, according to to Billy! :D- and few years later Venom, HellHammer-Celtic Frost, Slayer, Metallica, Bathory, Mercyful Fate, Manowar and so on...
but no or little radio here for this music style , just badly recorded K7 with the vinyls of the mates. Truly the best sound !!
In fact , our zero years.  :headbanger:
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Thelemech

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Re: Grunge: Metal or not?
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2018, 01:24:05 PM »
I think that yes Grunge is a subgenre of Metal, with heavy influences from Punk and Classic Rock.

I am a big fan and was glad that they put an end to the bloated and tired Glam/Pop Metal.

 :rockon:
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Zzzptm

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Re: Grunge: Metal or not?
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2018, 01:38:59 PM »
I'm GlamPop Metal went away... but not that it got replaced with Grunge.

I'm about halfway through Nirvana's Bleach and it's not working out well. The opening track was kinda desert-y, which I liked, but the rest of the album is getting into sludgey vocals. If The Melvins are to blame, then so be it. I really can't get into The Melvins AT ALL.

That's it, I can't take Bleach anymore, it's coming off. Got about 3/4ths of the way through and it was all sounding the same.

Stone Temple Pilots... there's another 90s band I got no love for.
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Billy Underdog

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Re: Grunge: Metal or not?
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2018, 01:47:51 PM »
^^^ You're still not adressing the question if Grunge is Metal or not, though. If it's to your liking or not is a whole different matter. The fact that you think it lacks the speed of Punk/Post-Punk is just saying there's some Metal there...

And STP are more the "alternative Rock" that Charg have mistaken for Grunge...

But what seems to be the consensus over the last posts is that whether it's Metal, Metal derived or have nothing to do with Metal at all, IF they killed Metal, it was the wrong kind of Metal they killed. :)) A feat i would rather give Guns N' Roses the honors for, but that's a whole different discussion...
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 01:59:34 PM by Billy Underdog »
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