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ROCK AND ROLL! => Black Sabbath => All Other Eras => Topic started by: KiloDeltaCharlie on January 15, 2021, 07:14:19 AM
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First off, I have issues with this album, I have difficulties getting passed the muddy sound. I was so hoping the Deluxe Edition could have resolved that problem, but sadly not (lost tapes etc.). I live in hope that we will get a cleaned up version at some point, I'm sure I will like the album more if we do. Having said that there are some good songs on here.
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We start with Trashed. As is usually the case Sabbath have a really good opener on an album, perhps not Hole in the Sky/Neon Knights good but enjoyable none-the-less. It starts with a chunky riff, the rythm section is good. The lyrics are silly but that's in keeping with the subject matter. I don't like Ian's "screams" partticullrly (never have if I'm honest), but they're not over done here. A good start.
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Ah we're going on with this...okay! I'm game.
I agree with KDC that the big problem with this album is the muddy sound. The songs are for most part great, but the sound is bad. It was a real shame that the masters were lost so that it never got the remix/remaster that it rightfully would have deserved.
Another weak link on the album is ofcourse Bill Ward who was totally out of it during the recording and it shows sadly on his drumming. I do wish Bev Bevan would have recorded the album too...
Anywho...
Trashed is a killer rocker and a great opener. I'd put it right up there Neon Knights and Turn Up The Night. The riff is great and Ian's shotgun style vocals are suberb. It's crazy how much lyrics he can fit into a 4 minute song! Also it tells a great true story! Which is another Ian thing.
Funnily this was the ONLY song that was never played live...but I can surely understand why...there is no way Ian could have been able to reproduce that live night after night....same thing that was with Turn Up The Night...
This is also Ian's and Tony's favourite song from the album, proven by the fact that they redid it on the Gillan's Inn album back in 2006. Granted that version was bit softer but it still rocked.
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Trashed is a fine opener for this album, and I always enjoy a good rocker. I am not a fan of scream-singing, but on this tune Gillan does not over do it. A good beginning.
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@Charger
I think there is a demand to do Born Again, but after that I doubt we would bother (I'd love to do the Martin albums but except for Eternal Idol (which Zs likes) I might be on my own!)
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(I'd love to do the Martin albums but except for Eternal Idol (which Zs likes) I might be on my own!)
WE...WE'd be on our own.
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^^^
Cool... but we might skip Seventh Star ;)
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I can be on board with skipping Seventh Star. I've already tried it recently, and I much prefer Glenn Hughes doing those tunes in his solo band than how they sound on the album which, like Born Again, has production issues. I'll also gladly work through the Martin albums, the gems are worth the coal.
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TRASHED
I'm gonna play the original and the re-done version with Glover and Paice in place of Geezer and Bill.
Original version: I remember putting on my headphones for the first-ever listen and getting blown out by the brute force opener. Really heavy, aggressive, and Big Ian just belting everything out. This was the guy that sang "Highway Star", for sure. As a big Ian Gillan fan, I loved hearing him on a really heavy track like this.
And then Iommi's solo started... why was it so tinny? Great playing, but the sound was off on it... oh well, I really loved that bass sound... even though, on the second bridge, I was already thinking about the word "muddy". It's sad when a kid of 16 is disappointed with production values...
Who Cares version: great to have the production fixed... except, uh, someone put Gillan's voice through a filter. Gillan's also 30 years older, give or take a few, so he's not gonna scream like back in the day. It's also a victim of the loudness wars, which wasn't an issue with the original mud. BUT, Iommi's sound is totally fixed and his solo extended, which is a real treat.
This song is a Deep Purple song with Tony Iommi guesting on guitar and I like it better than the original muddy version.
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I have a like or loathe relationship with this album, depending on my mood. Sometimes I can listen to it and actually gain some enjoyment out of it and other times I listen to it(like yesterday) and think it’s wretched. A lot gets spoken about the horrible mix and eq levels but something that gets a bit overlooked is Iommi’s terrible guitar tone. It’s overly screechy to the point you can’t make out a lot of the definition in his notes ...Maybe the coke convinced him his tone sounded fucking awesome!
Anyhow onto the album opener “Trashed” After a lazy and awkward start the song soon settles into its groove, the opening vocal melody is a bit bland but the 2nd section of the verse into the chorus has very catchy lines with Tony’s chugging guitar. The lyrics are quite dumb by Sabbaths previous standards, apparently about the drunken exploits of Gillan crashing Bills car around the recording studios grounds or some shit...umm ok.
Meanwhile, Bills heavy playing with Geezers thudding bass bring some real heaviness to the song and Tony’s solo is fiery with lots of hammer-ons and fast vibrato but the screechy tone makes it sound quite messy.
It’s a good fast rocker to open the album but nowhere near the level of Neon Knights” or “Turn Up The Night” that’s for sure, but the catchiness and heaviness of the song still makes it a winner.
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I'll cover the next two tracks together: Stonehenge/Disturbing the Priest, as they pretty run into each other.
Stonehenge - I've never really known what to think about those short ambient tracks, they don't really do much for me, honestly I think they wouldn't be missed!
Disturbing the Priest - I've always 'quite' liked this but I also felt it was a bit disjointed. The quiet verse is pretty good, musically though it never really seems to get going and is bit a of a mess!
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Stonehenge is a nice moody instrumental intro song...nothing much else can be said about that. Again I thought this song was done with keyboards but it was actually Geezer and Tony using some effects I think...
Disturbing The Priest is my absolute favorite song on the album. It's also the heaviest song on the album and actually one of the heaviest songs Sabbath has ever done.
The riff is an odd one but it works perfectly and the sudden tempo changes and overall mood are classic Sabbath.
Ian took the vocal melody from his own song Scarabus but that doesn't matter all that much as it's a great melody.
Again per Ian's style the lyrics tell a true story from the recording sessions....only doomyfied a bit. Lyrically also this the closest to "classic" Sabbath Ian got...his lyrics weren't exactly all about drugs devils and dragons...
This is a great track that doesn't lose much to any classic Sabbath material. And some of Ian's screams here are nearly out of this world.
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I think the heaviest song rank would have to be The Dark/Zero The Hero.
Zero The Hero is fast metal song...not all that heavy/doomy.
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Stonehenge is an interesting little piece, but it doesn't seem to work as a good Lead-In to the nest song.
Disturbing The Priest is a good tune. I must emphasize "good", but not "great". Fortunately Gillan saves the screams for the end of the song, so I don't mind them. I satisfying track overall.
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^^^
Sadly I think you might be alone in that thought...although we did do Never Say Die and 7th Star is atleast better than that.... ;D
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^^^
Sadly I think you might be alone in that thought...although we did do Never Say Die and 7th Star is atleast better than that.... ;D
No one here likes 7th Star?
Been my experience that very few people anywhere like Seventh Star...atleast not as a Sabbath album...which ofcourse techincally it isn't...or atleast shouldn't have been.
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I understand people’s feelings because Tony was the only member, but then what about the Martin era, that’s it Sabbath either?
You're forgetting the Seventh Star was NEVER intented to be a Sabbath album...it was Tony's solo album but the record company forced the use of the Sabbath name...that's the thing.
The Tony Martin-era again was always Black Sabbath and never intented to be anything different...should it have been something different well that's a whole different matter and most people here have their views (that differ from mine) on that subject.
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Hey! This is Born Again! Seventh Star stuff should go to another thread! :redcard:
Stonehenge: Music to plan stage prop designs to. :smug:
Disturbing the Priest: After the first chord stab and screams, I remember hearing "Scarabus" from the Ian Gillan Band album by the same name and thinking, "huh. That's an odd choice for the foundation of a Sabbath tune." Then again, the Tony Iommi Jazz Trio might have been partial to the fusion rock from the IGB. I've never warmed to the tune, but never hated it, either. It's what I listen to between Trashed and Zero the Hero.
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Why can’t it be discussed here
Hello, welcome to the Born Again thread. :smug:
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Quite right.
Back on topic.
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I moved (most of) my post to the new Seventh Star thread.
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Stonehenge is a kind of cool sounding piece but it seems misplaced as a stand alone instrumental 2nd song in. It does flow ok into the next track but I don’t really see any reason for having it as a seperate track or even having it at all. The title is cheesy as was the silly stage prop they toured with on the accompanying tour which provided much inspiration for Spinal Tap.
Disturbing the Priest is the best song on the album for mine. It’s quite unique in its structure and delivery but still has a Sabbath familiarity to it with the way it builds tension then releases it. Gillan really brings a lot atmosphere to this song with his vocals but unfortunately not the lyrics. Lines like “We’re disturbing the priest, Won’t you please come to our feast, Do we mind disturbing the priest, Not at all not at all not in the least” is embarrassingly bad. The whole album is littered with similarly bad lyrics. Love both Bills bombastic and subtle approach on this track as well as the seriously eerie sounds Tony gets out of his guitar.
Great song that could’ve been a real classic with a better mix and better lyrics.
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Side 1 ends with The Dark / Zero the Hero.
The Dark is a nice atmospheric peice but really doesn't need to be here and has nothing to do with the song it runs into...
Zero the Hero, is my favourite track on the album. Yes the lyrics are silly (as is te case with most of the album!). But it has a great riff and solo, Ian sings it well with NO screams (thank the lord!), it's laid back approach is a nice change of pace for the album.
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The Dark is a perfect little intro. Very much like Embryo. Eventhough it's a seperate track you can't even imagine listening to Zero The Hero without it, just like you can't listen to Children Of The Grave without Embryo.
Zero The Hero is bit of an unusual Sabbath epic as it's a straight forward fast song. The main riff is catchy in it's simplicity. Guns & Roses ripped it for Paradice City too.
Ian belts out some killer vocals in his near shotgun style again which is brilliant. Eventhough he doesn't use his full range here it's still my second favourite vocal preformance by him on this album.
Eventhough I do not understand the hate of Ian's lyrics that is present here at all, I have to agree lyrically this isn't that good and bit on the odd side...But still it's not like there's bog blasts or silver ships on plasmic oceans here.
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^^^
I wouldn't say I hate the lyrics, and maybe "silly" wasn't the right word, but they are very different from the usual Sabbath lyric.
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The Dark is a fine mood setter, and a great LI to Zero The Hero. I love the way that throbbing beat fades in as the LI fades out. Without a doubt, the best song on the album, and it narrowly misses cracking my Top 10 Sabbath favorites. Awesome tune.
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The Dark is another meaningless standalone instrumental track that tries to be all spooky but all it does is make them sound cartoonish(which Sabbath became even more later on) which they never were in the 70’s... It doesn’t even seem to flow well into the next song very well either which is...Zero the Hero I’ve never really dug this song much.The riff is ok but it’s just too goddam repetitive and the song doesn’t seem to go anywhere. The chorus is kinda catchy I guess but the rest of the song sounds pedestrian. And again, then you get to the laughable lyrics. “Your face is normal that’s the way you’re bred, And that’s the way you’re going to stay.” “Where the heroes sit by the river, With a magic in their music as they eat raw liver”
And then finishes with this doozy“But the luv-a-duckin' way you're walkin' around. The city with your balls and your head full of nothing. It's easy for you sucker but you really need stuffing”
At some stage Tony probably should’ve pulled rank and demand Geezer write the lyrics :rofl:
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Zero the Hero has a great brooding sound in it, a very doomy rumble. WHY they all thought it would be good to have Ian Gillan make a stab at rapping, I don't know. On the whole, I enjoy the song if I take the lyrics more as additional, ambient percussion than as something with a deeper meaning.
But, Jack, if you want worse lyrics, flip the record over for the first track of side 2...
:ivan:
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The first track on side 2 is Digital Bitch.
Ow! my ears. :'(
Awful, awful song... it's right down at the bottom of the barrel with Changes and Am I Going Insane as the worst songs they ever did.
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Digital Bitch is a nice fast rocker which pokes quite clearly towards the biggest bitch in the whole wide world (no not Kyle's mom) Sharon Osbourne.
It's not a great song but it most certainly isn't a bad one either. The riff isn't among Tony's finest fast song riffs.
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It's fast, but oh so sour. That guitar tone, the horrible lyrics, it's as bad as the album cover. I think better production could save the underlying instrumental track, but the lyrics need a complete and total rewrite.
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The lyrics just go from bad to worse on this album. The riff is as bland and as uninspired as Tony had come up with to this point and the chorus is by far the worst on the album and one of the worst that’s ever been on a Sabbath album ever. Digital Bitch shouldn’t have made the cut on this album or any album for that matter. Just embarrassingly bad.
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Digital Bitch is an energetic tune which I find enjoyable. Once again, Gillan does not cross the line with the screaming and the guitar play is wonderful. I don't quite understand why people get so hung up on the lyrics. After all, lyrics are the least important part of a song. Not that they aren't important, just the least important. I mean why not claim every instrumental is bad, because there are no lyrics. ;D
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The title track Born Again follows, and along with Digital Bitch we hit the low point of the album. This is such a dirge, I feel it is music to cut your wrists to! Seriously not much to like about this one, it's worse than the cover! ;) But we have two good songs to finish, so that's something to look forward to.
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Born Again does battle it out with Never Say Die on the worst title track of Sabbath's catalogue.
The slow tempo, Tony's odd guitar sound and Ian's rather tired sounding signing doesn't elevate the song at all.
There really are very few positive sides about this song and it is along with Keep It Warm the only two songs that are must skips every time I listen to the album.
Digital Bitch is an energetic tune which I find enjoyable. Once again, Gillan does not cross the line with the screaming and the guitar play is wonderful. I don't quite understand why people get so hung up on the lyrics. After all, lyrics are the least important part of a song. Not that they aren't important, just the least important. I mean why not claim every instrumental is bad, because there are no lyrics. ;D
Thanks bud! Now I don't feel quite so lonely in my liking of DB anymore... ;D
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Being not much of a fan of these slow ballads, it's no surprise that I don't care for Born Again. I don't hate it, but since it is the cover title, I expected more of a heavy and doomy tune, given what is on the cover. I might add that I have no complaints about the cover.
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The album is a real mixed bag - Born Again is a track that I like, as I think Gillan actually put some effort into the lyrics and there's enough dynamic variation to set parts of the song apart from the others. It goes to show that about half the album is pretty good, but which half is going to vary significantly from person to person.
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I guess I’m in the minority with the title track. I actually really dig it. Gillan pours his heart out on this song and delivers a great vocal performance, although I’m still not really sure what the songs about while Tony delivers an emotive solo in the vein of Lonely is the Word, but doesn't quite reach the same heights of that song.
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Last but one we have Hot Line. I've always quite liked this song, nice uptempo rocker, nice riff and solo, thumping bass and although Ian throws in a few too many screams for my liking, it doesn't irritate me too much, and otherwise the vocals are fine.
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Hot Line has everything I like in a good hard rock song. Great rhythm, a heavy and catchy beat, nice solo section. This could have been my favorite song on this album. I say "could have been" were it not for one huge problem. Gillan ruins the song with his agitating and unnecessary screaming. What a waste of a good tune. :(
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Hot Line is one of my favourites. I remember way back in the day when Joe was still active on the other site we always shared our love for this song...
Such a great riff from Tony, one of his finest fast song riffs actually. Bill Ward is struggling here though but then again he was struggling through out the album. Geezer is right on the money as well.
Ian is belting out some crazy good vocals again. This I think is the most Purple Sabbath song of the album...granted Ritchie would have never come up with a riff this fast and heavy but still...there is a good bit of Purple vibe in this one combined with some of Gillan's solo work.
All in all a great track.
Edit:
Reading this thread it becomes more and more evident why me and zzz are the only Deep Purple fans in here...everyone else seems to hate Ian Gillan's vocals. :o
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^^^
When he avoids the unnecessary screams he actually has a great voice, probably why Zero is my favourite track on the album... no screams! :P
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I like Hot Line, as well. It was great to see live. That one's a keeper.
Except for where Gillan sounds like he's gargling razor blades. Ouch.
I know that he had a vocal chord operation between this album and HOBL, can't remember if it was before or after PS. But it's why he sounds different in his later work and screams way less than before.
Glenn Hughes's screaming solution, on the other hand, was to quit doing coke. :smug:
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Edit:
Reading this thread it becomes more and more evident why me and zzz are the only Deep Purple fans in here...everyone else seems to hate Ian Gillan's vocals. :o
That’s quite wrong. I’m a big fan of 70’s DP and even some of their 80’s & 90’s stuff and much like Sabbath & Zeppelin, every individual member brought their own immense & unique abilities to make them a special band. In saying that, I’m probably more a Blackmore fan than anything else. I love 70’s Rainbow more than 70’s Purple.
I just don’t like what Purple have become these days. Only a shadow of their former selfs.
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^^^
When he avoids the unnecessary screams he actually has a great voice, probably why Zero is my favourite track on the album... no screams! :P
True that. :beerbang:
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What JtS says is true. One can be a DP fan and not like Steve Morse. :) There are DP fans that only like Mk1 albums, and call out the rest as crowd-pleasing junk that abandons their prog roots.
When we look at Born Again, we are looking at an intersection of Sabbath and the front man of the most well-known incarnation of Deep Purple, Ian Gillan. It's on the level of Axl Rose subbing as vocalist for AC/DC. Big personality, no question that there's talent, interesting combination... but... at the end of the day, Gillan ain't Ozzy. He ain't Dio, either. He's Big Ian, and he does what he does the way that he does it.
In concert, Iommi, Geezer, and Bev Bevan did a great job on Smoke on the Water. That song totally worked in the Sabbath style. Gillan did very well with songs like Neon Knights and especially Rock 'n' Roll Doctor, but missed the mark with War Pigs. Dio-era tunes, in general, were better for his style than Ozzy-era tunes. But none were as good for him as Gillan-era tunes, Smoke on the Water and Hot Line being the best of those tunes.
On the Who Cares CD, we get 3/5ths of DP Mk2 playing with Tony Iommi and they do a great job with Trashed - shows how good professionals with loads of experience can gel and get stuff done.
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One can be a DP fan and not like Steve Morse. :)
Yeah but one can hardly be a DP fan and hate Ian Gillan's voice though...well I suppose if they only like Evans, Coverdale and Turner it would be possible.
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One can be a DP fan and not like Steve Morse. :)
Yeah but one can hardly be a DP fan and hate Ian Gillan's voice though...well I suppose if they only like Evans, Coverdale and Turner it would be possible.
I'll take this to another thread. :D
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Hotline is a good uptempo rocker with a catchy vocal melody. Love Tony’s off the cuff type soloing in odd places of the song. On the surface it appears just a simple traditional uptempo rock song but is structured a little different/unusual than a simple traditional structured rock song when you really take it in.
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One can be a DP fan and not like Steve Morse. :)
Yeah but one can hardly be a DP fan and hate Ian Gillan's voice though...well I suppose if they only like Evans, Coverdale and Turner it would be possible.
Hope you’re not including me in that. I’ve never said once in this thread or anywhere I hate Gillan’s voice.
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The last song is Keep It Warm. One of the better songs IMO. A nice, slower, bluesy song, Ian's vocals are good, the bass is prominent but the best bit is the tempo change in the solo, I always look forward to that bit. I'm not sure what the fascination is with keeping the Rats warm. ;)
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One can be a DP fan and not like Steve Morse. :)
Yeah but one can hardly be a DP fan and hate Ian Gillan's voice though...well I suppose if they only like Evans, Coverdale and Turner it would be possible.
Hope you’re not including me in that. I’ve never said once in this thread or anywhere I hate Gillan’s voice.
I didn't say I hate his voice either. I just don't like scream singing.
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Keep It Warm is hands down the worst song on the album.
A rather bland ballad type of a song that touches bit too close to that 80s power ballad type. Bit un-Sabbath like song. Granted this isn't nearly as bad as Changes or She's Gone atleast this has some punch in it and isn't quite such a cliche fest through out but it's not all that far ahead truth be told.
This is a song that might worked better as Gillan solo track with some added keyboards...but as it stands now it's a skip song.
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I will rank the songs on Born Again as:
1. The Dark / Zero the Hero
2. Trashed
3. Hot Line
4. Keep it Warm
5. Stonehenge / Disturbing the Priest
7= Born Again
7= Digital Bitch
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My ranking would go :
1. Stonehenge / Disturbing The Priest
2. The Dark / Zero The Hero
3. Trashed
4. Hot Line
5. Digital Bitch
6. Born Again
7. Keep It Warm
Overall rating would be
* * * ½
The bad, muddy mix brings this down more than just the two weak songs.
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On Keep It Warm, I'm between Charger and KDC. I loved this song when I was a kid, but the older I get, the less relevant it seems. Probably being in a stable marriage for over 30 years has something to do with that, I guess... musically, I like the pick up in the tempo for the solo and the fact that it's a song with a good singalong chorus doesn't hurt. But it ain't a Sabbath tune. It's a beer-drinker of a song.
I can imagine Motorhead or Motley Crue doing well with this song, it would fit fine in their overall repertoire. It would also work for Rainbow with Graham Bonnet or Whitesnake pre-Geffen Records USA commercialization. It could even be retooled as a blues-funk "Keep It Warm Pts 1&2" and be done just fine by The Isley Brothers. It just feels odd calling something like this a "Black Sabbath song".
I'm wondering if that was what Iommi was thinking as he watched the band wander off after the tour and wanted to do something on his own and *not* have to be carrying on as Black Sabbath, with all that brand entails and demands.
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Keep it Warm is a rather lacklustre and sappy affair and a disappointing way to finish the album. It’s not a terrible song but just seems a bit dull and out of place. Actually the whole of side 2 seems out of place and in stark contrast to the heavier doomier side 1.
All in all Born Again for its horrible sound and mix, it’s inconsistency, mostly awful lyrics and its steep drop off in quality song writing from the album it proceeded gets marked down considerably.
5.0/10
Best to worst songs
1.Stonehenge/Disturbing the Priest
2.Trashed
3.Born Again
4.The Dark/Zero the Hero
5.Hot Line
6.Keep it Warm
7.Digital Bitch
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The chorus of Keep It Warm sounds too much like a sing-a-long, thus preventing it from sounding like Black Sabbath music. Iommi does a great job in the instrumental section (when doesn't he?), but that chorus is a real killjoy. I'll pass.
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Just out of curiosity are we skipping Seventh Star and heading off to Eternal Idol?... Well me, Charger and Zs, I'm guessing Typhon won't join us (happy to be proved wrong) and I'm not sure about Jack.
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Just out of curiosity are we skipping Seventh Star and heading off to Eternal Idol?... Well me, Charger and Zs, I'm guessing Typhon won't join us (happy to be proved wrong) and I'm not sure about Jack.
Perfectly content to go straight to EI and skip 7th Star.
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Yup.
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I’d personally like to do Seventh Star. It says Black Sabbath on the cover and is a gateway album between Born Again and the Tony Martin albums. Charger can opt out if he likes as we already know how he feels about that album.
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^^^
For completeness sake I would want to do 7th Star too, I didn't think anyone particularly wanted it.
How about this... we start both albums at the same time, and people can choose which they contribute to. I'm thinking that way we may keep as many interested in this as possible.
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The way I see it, it will be the same contributors to 7th Star as we’ve had right through anyway, except we might lose Typhon. Not sure what Charger will do but I dare say he might enjoy unleashing on it ;D
I know you’re a Hughes fan and so am I and Z and I can foresee us coming back to it when the TM albums are done anyway, so let’s just get it done in order. Having two albums going concurrently my lose my interest.
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Inserting my final rating of the albums for completion's sake.
Born Again = 6/10
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OK, then, I'll roll up my sleeves and do 7th Star with those who will do it.