The Community
ROCK AND ROLL! => Black Sabbath => The Ozzy Years => Topic started by: Zzzptm on August 20, 2020, 11:40:30 AM
-
OK, gang, let's pick this one apart and put it back together, song by song.
I'll start with "Wheels of Confusion / The Straightener" - I really don't know how this became one of my fave Sabbath songs, because there was a long time when it wasn't. As an opener, it's decidedly slow-paced with a riff that doesn't grab the listener the way SBS or Sweet Leaf does. The lead fills are slower, the vocals mellower... I felt it was kinda yuck when I first heard it... "fairy tales and daydreams?" what is this crap? Where's my Iron Man? Where's the children of the grave and stuff like that?
The bridge picks up the pace a little and then gets really hard for the vocal part, which I think planted an anchor for the song in my heart that helped me to keep coming back to it.
It goes back to the droning rhythm from before for one more verse and then... we get a slash, followed by "The Straightener". That major fourth leading into the solo jam, aw hells yeah! That's what I wanted in an opening track!
So I had a bit of a mix on my hands with a song that had one bit in the middle and the ending that were out of sight and a main section that left me confused. But I kept listening and that drone in the main part won me over. I don't see it as a price of admission to get to the end, I now enjoy it as much as I do the rest of the song. With the complicated guitar interplay at the end, I'm not surprised this isn't a concert track for the band. But it's a studio gem that really can sneak up on a body.
-
Some of you may already know that Wheels Of Confusion is a Top 5 favorite Sabbath song of mine. Why? Well, as the music eased in, it eloquently began to describe life's experiences as I knew them.
Verse 1 - you are young and innocent. Verse 2 - innocence vanishes and is replaced by problems. Then when the music speeds up and hardens, to me represents the turmoil in the mind trying to figure out what the heck life is about. Verse 3 - you realize life is just a game that you can't win. Bang. That's a tough message. Accept it or die.
This song grabs my mind every time I hear it. Magnificent. :rockon:
-
I'm quoting myself here:
Vol 4 is a very dualistic album...the good tracks are REALLY good and the weak tracks are REALLY weak...and like that's not enough it's got even a couple of okay songs too...
I think overall it's probably the most mixed feeling Sabbath album of all time...Listening to it is like a massive journey of ups and downs.
And I'll add that this is a very unique album in Sabbath's catalogue...it's the only one that raises such mixed emotions. It's a fun rollercoaster ride unlike any other.
I do say this...Wheels Of Confusion, as good of a track as it is in it's own right, is probably the worst album opener of Sabbath's entire history. Tomorrow's Dream should have been the opener...or even St. Vitus Dance...or heck if they wanted something slower even Cornucopia would have done better...Wheels should have closed the album...now that would have been perfect. Under The Sun ending the first half...
-
Gotta give out a +1 to Typhon for that summary. Dead on target. And Charger's on point as well, putting it at the end of the album, I think it would have been even more effective.
As it is, taken as a standalone set, Typhon's comment got me to finally make sense of the titles Wheels of Confusion / The Straightener - after declaring that the world will still be turning when you're gone, yeah when you're gone, the music stops going around and around and takes that direct, cold, hard path. I like it even more, unlocking that riddle. (Even if it's one of those times a fan reads too much into a song, I'll still go with that conclusion. :) )
-
OK, so moving on to "Tomorrow's Dream".
This one is more direct in its riffage and lyric, doesn't take a lot of fancy math to figure this one out. We hit a lovely bridge that points the way to a lot of stuff in SBS, Tony does a fine solo, and we have another verse, pack it up and go home.
It's a simple, enjoyable piece. So why *wasn't* it the opener?
-
I'm also in agreement that WoC should not have been the opener, and that Tomorrows Dream would have been a great opener... or maybe FX... I'll get my coat!
-
or maybe FX...
:haha2:
-
I don't know what should be the opener or closer, but Tomorrow's Dream is a very pleasurable tune. Not too heavy, but not too light. Tough to find a band that could successfully stick one in the middle like that, but Sabbath pulls it off. If you are not able to float along while this song plays, then I don't think you really appreciate the talent of this band. Bullseye! 8)
-
Never had a problem with WOC being the opener. Love it in fact. Why can’t a song that takes you on an epic journey be an opener? They don’t always have to be a fast or uptempo from the get-go.
-
Never had a problem with WOC being the opener. Love it in fact. Why can’t a song that takes you on an epic journey be an opener? They don’t always have to be a fast or uptempo from the get-go.
Dido. :yes:
-
And now we come to... "Changes".
Tony plays piano, Geezer does the mellotron, Ozzy sings as usual, Bill takes a smoke break. Tony had just taught himself piano, and I'm assuming this was Geezer's first run-in with the mellotron, so I'm attributing the simplicity of the tune to those factors. It really is an introductory-level piano exercise. Maybe not the first one in the book, but towards the late middle or end of the exercises.
Adding in "FX", and we definitely get the two most experimental tracks on the album... I'd also say the two least integral to the album as a whole. "Changes" is a nice tune, but nowhere near as effective as other Sabbath compositions. "FX" is just music to be stoned by, as it doesn't really add to the mood of the album as a whole, like E5150 does on Mob Rules.
I don't know if anything more needs to be said for "FX", but I'm pretty sure Charger has some words for "Changes". :D
-
With the possible exception of Am I Going Insane (Radio)... Changes is absolutely the worst song the Sab boys are associated with. Really? What were they thinking?
-
^^^^
KDC's Charger imitation was rather spot on there!
;D
-
^^^^
KDC's Charger imitation was rather spot on there!
;D
I can't quite nail the accent though! ;)
-
With all due respect for the new comedy duo of KDC/Charger, I have a completely different view of these type of Sabbath songs. For decades, I have always affectionately referred to them as a "break from the onslaught" (BFTO). As far as FX goes, I refer to these odd shorty's as a Lead In (LI). I have gotten use to FX being a LI for Supernaut, kind of like Don't Start (Too Late) is a LI for SOTU.
In the past, I may have mentioned that I almost always listen to Black Sabbath albums in their entirety, start to finish. It has always been the only band I am able to do this with. BFTO tunes are lightly sprinkled throughout the Great 8, as well as one on 13, and this formula has always worked nicely for me. Now, is Changes one of the better BFTO songs? No, but I still let it play as a welcome pause from the heavy material. Chill. 8)
-
Well the reason Changes is so horrible is not because it's slow...Sabbath has done some great slow soft numbers too like Solitude, Over And Over and Dying For Love but it's because it's just so damn boring and so so full of thick cheese. It's like Sabbath trying to do Beatles while being so high on cocaine they can't even see straight.
As for FX it's funny little tune, but it's too long...as an intro to Supernaut it would have worked better as a 30 second number.
-
It's not like they sat around looking at each other saying, "You know... side one needs another minute and 41 seconds of something, or it'll just be too short." They put FX on because they thought, "Yeah, let's do that!"
When I'm being a completist, yes, I'll play "Changes". But I really don't like it. I much prefer instrumentals like "Laguna Sunrise" or "Fluff" for my onslaught breaks.
-
Time to talk "Supernaut"...
I have always loved this jaunty tune. It's got a swooping groove to it and a trumpeting main riff. Tony's solo trills perfectly and Bill's bashing adds fun to the whole experience. Loads of enthusiasm and energy in this one.
-
I think it's my favourite song off the album. I like the nursery rhyme lyrics and the percussion break in the middle.
-
Supernaut is one of my favourite Sabbath tunes of all time...That riff...love it...and that break in the middle is indeed awesome as well...
-
And back to the onslaught! I think Supernaut is somewhat unique for Sabbath in that it is virtually a nonstop hammering with not a lot of tangents. Appropriately placed right after the BFTO piece. I usually can't resist playing a little air guitar with this one.
Slammin'. :metal1:
-
Time for side two and...
SNOWBLIND
We had some discussion here, and I switched my vote after listening to the studio version again. I love this tune, and if I did a remix of Vol. 4 and SBS, I could slot this into the middle of the SBS set and it would fit right in with those tracks. Sweet stuff, this song.
-
I think this is the track where mine and Charger's views diverge somewhat. This was one of the first songs I ever heard by the band being the B-Side of the 1980 re-issue of Paranoid, and as such is a nice nostalgic song for me. It is only about the 3rd/4th best song on the album though.
-
I’ve always liked changes, piano is simple but memorable, lyrics are simple and syrupy but Ozzy’s emotive voice make them tolerable. Never cared for FX though. It’s totally unnecessary to me.
-
I think this is the track where mine and Charger's views diverge somewhat.
Yes I think so too!
:haha1:
-
Since we've already had much discussion and cussin about Snowblind, let's move on to Cornucopia.
A slow, heavy start that switches suddenly to a popping, syncopated uptempo riff and a lyric calling out the excesses of materialism - hence the title,"Cornucopia", meaning "horn of plenty". I've always enjoyed the lyrics and the instrumental track changes up a lot of things. Because of that, it's always fresh for me.
-
It always sounded like a noisy mess to me, but it has grown on me over the years.
-
Cornucopia is another one of my all time favourites! Always missed it in live sets...this was one of those songs that I would have much rather had become the staple than Snowblind.
This is another one of those short Sabbath EPICS. There's quite a bit going on here especially for a song under 4 minutes.
-
Cornucopia was an underrated pick of mine in Jack's thread. An unusual yet catchy piece that is not quite like anything else. Marvelous. ;D
I guess some things are incomprehensible. He can recognize the brilliance of Cornucopia, but not the awesomeness of Snowblind. My buddy Charger, the human paradox! :banana:
-
I’ve always liked changes, piano is simple but memorable, lyrics are simple and syrupy but Ozzy’s emotive voice make them tolerable. Never cared for FX though. It’s totally unnecessary to me.
I love Changes and there is only one Sabbath song that I skip :smug:
-
Now for "Laguna Sunrise".
This one always sets me at ease. I love the gentleness of Iommi's instrumental, it's very light and emotional.
-
LS is a nice enough tune, gets across the impression of a sunrise over Laguna Beach. One of the better instrumentals in their portfolio.
-
My buddy Charger, the human paradox! :banana:
Hahah! I'll take that compliment! :D
As for Laguna Sunrise, it is bit overly "light" for my taste but it still has a nice melody to it and it's not overly long...like lets say Fluff from the next album which becomes too repetetive. LS doesn't have that problem.
I do ponder how LS would have sounded had it been tuned down a bit...
-
Laguna Sunrise would be side 2's BFTO tune. I have always wondered if this was written after someone from the band actually saw the sun rise. 8)
-
Laguna Sunrise would be side 2's BFTO tune. I have always wondered if this was written after someone from the band actually saw the sun rise. 8)
It was...I think Tony said so in his book that as they were doing the album in California they were based near Laguna beach and he quite often checked out the sunrise after a whole night of writing and getting high.
-
Laguna Sunrise would be side 2's BFTO tune. I have always wondered if this was written after someone from the band actually saw the sun rise. 8)
It was...I think Tony said so in his book that as they were doing the album in California they were based near Laguna beach and he quite often checked out the sunrise after a whole night of writing and getting high.
I won't argue, but I thought I read that it was Bill who loved to stroll along Laguna Beach.
-
I had to check that out to make sure.
From Iron Man:
Laguna Sunrise was actually inspired by a sunrise at Laguna Beach. I was there with Spock, one of the guys of our crew who was a good guitar player as well. We were up all bloody night and I just started playing this acoustic guitar and came up with this idea.
-
Hearing those stories, I like it even more. :)
Now for "St. Vitus' Dance".
It's got a jerky syncopation for its main riff, has a nice and growling interior, but always that jangly-jerky guitar line. Your thoughts?
-
I had to check that out to make sure.
From Iron Man:
Laguna Sunrise was actually inspired by a sunrise at Laguna Beach. I was there with Spock, one of the guys of our crew who was a good guitar player as well. We were up all bloody night and I just started playing this acoustic guitar and came up with this idea.
I wonder if Bill lives near there now, and it's somewhere he visits, which maybe where I get the story.
I do find it strange that they wrote about "Laguna Sunrise" as the Sunset would be what you saw over the ocean... the Sunrise would be visible looking back over the California landmass!?
-
St Vitus Dance is a strange one. I like it but it's so obscure, I doubt anyone outside of the core fans have ever heard of it.
-
It *is* strange. I like it, but, yeah... it kind of jumps out of the bushes and yells "BOO!"
-
I quite enjoy St Vitus Dance. Granted the riff is bit "heavier" than the song itself but it has a very nice groove. The lyrics are bit on the silly "love song" side but what saves it is the fact that it's spoken from a third person view.
And yeah it's is bit strange...sunset would make more sense...but I guess it wasn't so much about the sunrise itself but the mood and look the beach had at sunrise...and maybe they were always still getting drunk and high and writing songs at sunset. :D
-
They DID spend half the record company advance on cocaine, after all...
-
I also enjoy St. Vitus Dance and agree with previous comments. I find it rather interesting to hear a guy giving a buddy some advice about his problems with a girlfriend. Or as KDC would say, "girlfiend". :))
-
I also enjoy St. Vitus Dance and agree with previous comments. I find it rather interesting to hear a guy giving a buddy some advice about his problems with a girlfriend. Or as KDC would say, "girlfiend". :))
I've said before, but subject wise it always reminded me of The Beatles She Loves You.
The "girlfiend" is desperate to get back to the cinema, she's taking some time off next week so I get to see Tenet again!
-
I had to check that out to make sure.
From Iron Man:
Laguna Sunrise was actually inspired by a sunrise at Laguna Beach. I was there with Spock, one of the guys of our crew who was a good guitar player as well. We were up all bloody night and I just started playing this acoustic guitar and came up with this idea.
I wonder if Bill lives near there now, and it's somewhere he visits, which maybe where I get the story.
I do find it strange that they wrote about "Laguna Sunrise" as the Sunset would be what you saw over the ocean... the Sunrise would be visible looking back over the California landmass!?
Bill is/was living in Seal Beach. I know they're both in Orange County but no idea about the distance between them.
-
^^^
I'd say about 20-25 kms to the south-east of Seal Beach. So not too far away.
-
"Under the Sun" - gets everything back in its place. This isn't experimental or exploratory, it's Black Sabbath doing what Black Sabbath does best. One of my favorite Iommi solos graces the middle section before returning to the confident doomy riff of the beginning. We then get a guitar-led fade out that points the way to Over and Over, a good deal yet in the future, but another great album closer.
:tony:
-
As Under The Sun slowly rumbles in, one can't help but expect a strong closing number from such a terrific album, and Sabbath doesn't disappoint. I love that heavy beating riff as Ozzy sings the message of how important it is to think for oneself, leading to the sped up middle section, perhaps symbolizing those who run the "rat race". Then back to the heavy riff, reinforcing the idea of a more steady paced independent life. The nearly 2 minute fade out always leaves me with a feeling of contentment.
A superb closer from one of the greatest albums I have ever heard. Awesome. :rockon:
-
We need to do this with another album. :smug:
-
Can't really say anything that you guys didn't already say...Under The Sun is a pretty damn near perfect tune. Starts super heavy and doomy and then effortlessly moves into classic heavy metal and then that brilliant solo...
Yup...one of Sabbath's finest this one...and a great closer too. Under The Sun IS Black Sabbath.
And yeah I'm all for doing this for another album too.
-
How about Sabbath Bloody Sabbath?
-
Under The Sun is a soild song, not my favourite off the album but a fine finishing song.
I'd be happy with SBS but wondered if going back to the start with the debut might be better.
-
I wonder is there much to really discuss about the first 3 that hasn't already been discussed? Also I think we tend to think alike on most songs there anyways. I think there might be more variety in our thoughts on SBS?
But I'll let zzz launch the ball on this one.
-
Well, tell you what, it's been a LONG time since I made myself listen to all of the first album. Maybe my musical taste buds have changed and it would be worth a go.
On the other hand, listening to Vol. 4 makes me hunger for SBS... I'm at a crossroads...
-
^^^
That's ok, go with SBS, it's my favourite album anyway.
-
...it's been a LONG time since I made myself listen to all of the first album.
??? Not really a criticism, but I find this to be inexplicable.
-
...it's been a LONG time since I made myself listen to all of the first album.
??? Not really a criticism, but I find this to be inexplicable.
How many inexplicable things am I up to now? :D
-
...it's been a LONG time since I made myself listen to all of the first album.
??? Not really a criticism, but I find this to be inexplicable.
How many inexplicable things am I up to now? :D
Funny. ::)
But for a Sabbath fan to say "made myself listen", like it is a chore rather than a pleasure, is pretty ridiculous. :naughty:
-
Well, it's taking a parental approach to myself. Doing it for my own good, even if I think I might not like it.
-
For completely spurious, gratuitous and unnecessary reasons... I'll rank the songs thus:
=1. Supernaut
=1. Wheels of Confusion
=3. Tomorrow's Dream
=3. Snowblind
5. Under The Sun
6. St Vitus Dance
7. Laguna Sunrise
8. FX
9. Changes
-
Changes below FX?
OUCH
:problem:
-
The Ozzy & Kelly Osbourne version from the early naughties really did the song no favours and has tarnished forever what was already a pretty mediocre song!
-
Well, it's taking a parental approach to myself. Doing it for my own good, even if I think I might not like it.
Go sit in the corner.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcS2wMpfi7ybM-fty9gDGnWP4budLHyhaqtRuQ&usqp=CAU)
-
Well, it's taking a parental approach to myself. Doing it for my own good, even if I think I might not like it.
Go sit in the corner.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcS2wMpfi7ybM-fty9gDGnWP4budLHyhaqtRuQ&usqp=CAU)
Done.
Mostly because that's my home office layout, more or less. :D
-
Well, it's taking a parental approach to myself. Doing it for my own good, even if I think I might not like it.
Go sit in the corner.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcS2wMpfi7ybM-fty9gDGnWP4budLHyhaqtRuQ&usqp=CAU)
Done.
Mostly because that's my home office layout, more or less. :D
Including the hat I hope! As that would be a nice treat for people joining you facetime or what ever that live chat thing is called! :D
-
Inserting my final rating of the albums for completion's sake.
Volume 4 - 10/10
-
VOL 4
* * *
Changes drops 3 stars right away but Supernaut and Under The Sun give it one back.