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ROCK AND ROLL! => All Them Other Guys => Topic started by: Zzzptm on April 12, 2020, 12:54:30 PM
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50. Babymetal.
:problem:
OK, not even at 50 do I put that band in the list...
We need to nominate and then sort things out. Maybe we don't get rankings, but we *do* get a list we can be proud of.
We'll start things off with the obvious:
Black Sabbath
Deep Purple
Dio
Ozzy
Rainbow
Metallica
Megadeth
Accept
Anthrax
Judas Priest
The Scorpions
Iron Maiden
So what *else* would possibly be considered for not just a list of 50 metal bands, but the 50 *most important* metal bands?
See, I'd add Aria, which has been the cornerstone of Russian metal. Great rockers, but also a family tree of all other Russian metal bands. The Scorpions were huge throughout the Iron Curtain countries, along with DP and Uriah Heep. Much of Eastern Europe wouldn't have metal if it weren't for those bands.
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Hmmm...this is a tough one though as "most important" is a very very wide and veried concept.
So they need to be bands that have left a mark on the genre or subgenre of metal...
Your choices are very obvious indeed. They all left a mark for sure.
So...
Slayer pretty much started the whole extreme metal thing so they need to be there.
Venom started the whole black metal thing
Korn started the numetal thing (which they still are the best and for me the only band worth listening to)
They'd be very obvious inclusions in my book...I don't know much about death metal but I think two bands were very influential in that genre Death and Napalm Death? People who know more can shed more light on that subject...thel or Tyr?
Pantera pretty much ruled the mid 90s so I think they should be included...
Candlemass and Cathedral were both very essential to the whole world of DOOM metal in europe...and Solitude Aeturnus and maybe Pentagram from the US...
Savatage was extremely influential in building the whole conceptual orchestral metal.
Alice Cooper obviously for horror rock and metal...but here is the thing though...is Alice more rock than metal?
Motörhead needs no reason really why they need to be included...
Thoughts about those band anyone?
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Black Sabbath
Deep Purple
Led Zeppelin
AC/DC
Death
Celtic Frost
Darkthrone
Metallica
Megadeth
Anthrax
Overkill
Slayer
Motorhead
Napalm Death
Judas Priest
Kreator
Destruction
Tankard
Sodom
Hammerfall
Iron Maiden
Pantera
KISS
Rainbow
Alice Cooper
Dio
Ozzy
Obituary
Vader
Amon Amarth
Cirith Ungol
Carcass
Motley Crue
Ratt
Helix
Guns N Roses
Helloween
Sepultura
Suffocation
Scorpions
Toxic Holocaust
Whitesnake
Candlemass
Cathedral
Corrosion Of Conformity
Onslaught
Witchfinder General
High On Fire
Razor
Grave Digger
Blue Oyster Cult
Morbid Angel
Saxon
Accept
Dark Angel
50 +give or take - these are some of my favorite bands!!
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It’s probably best to first go through the eras/genres and pick out the influencers and major players from both UK/Euro and US going back to early metal. I think it’s also important to not get too nostalgic or bias and leave out bands like Slipknot, System Of A Down, Rammstein, Avenged Sevenfold etc that are proven keepers at the top for over 10 years with sales and attendance figures. Every generation should be included.
So the starting point should be early metal from the UK and US and work our way through eras and genres.
UK
Black Sabbath
Deep Purple
Led Zeppelin
Judas Priest
UFO
Motörhead
Rainbow
US
Kiss
Alice Cooper
Aerosmith
Blue Öyster Cult
Ted Nugent
Van Halen
Others
AC/DC
Scorpions
Feel free to discuss who to cull. I know some of them are debatable as to whether they are metal or not, particularly some of those US bands, but they were at least playing heavy rock which is considered early metal.
Happy to cull Aerosmith and Ted Nugent straight off the bat.
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Well the thing is though have bands like System Of A Down, Slipknot and especially Avenged Sevenfold brought anything new to the table? Have they left a mark? They are widely popular yes, but is popular = important? In some cases I'd say yes in others no... System Of A Downs first two albums were great, then they went downhill fast...haven't really followed enough about Slipknot to know anything about them...same pretty much goes for AS as well...Nightmare is a good album but that's all I know about them. So honestly I don't have that much of a basis to say one thing or another about those two...
Bunch of bands on Thel's list I don't even know about! As I could have expected! :D
And yeah I don't think Aerosmith or Ted are metal at all so...
AC/DC is same than Alice Cooper....kind of borderline case...if we choose to take in one we pretty much have to take in the other too...and I'd be willing to include both.
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Ok Charger point taken but I definitely think Slipknot and SOAD brought something new to the table, especially SOAD, no one sounds like them and I probably like them the most from the newer wave mid 90’s onwards but have they done enough? Only 5 studio albums.
I’m happy to nominate the following to kick it off.
Black Sabbath
Deep Purple
Led Zeppelin
UFO
Judas Priest
Alice Cooper
Kiss
AC/DC
Rainbow
Scorpions
Blue Öyster Cult?
Motörhead
Van Halen
I’m leaving Uriah Heep out, not heavy enough for mine. More hard rock with prog elements, same could be said for Alice Cooper in the 70’s but he’s done albums and songs over his career that are definitely in the heavy metal category and he’s been embraced by the metal fraternity.
Got a question mark on BOC too.
Maybe if there’s some room at the end we can add in some of the unlucky ones :P
Any objections? Or would anyone like to nominate someone from the 70’s wave? Then we can move onto the 80’s.
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Hmmm....Just realised I forgot Thin Lizzy. A band I absolutely love. Not metal but they definitely
rocked hard and their influence on metal is undeniable, particularly on Iron Maiden.
Would like to put them in but cool with leaving them out.
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It's an ultra-objective list of course , nevertheless I tried to know if for each mentioned bandname we could say that an unknown combo plays "à la (puts one of the 50 groups listed below)"
I thought first and foremost by asking myself whether this or that band brought something to the musical genre through the last decades by pushing the limits even more or proposed something new. :
Black Sabbath
Led Zeppelin
Deep Purple
Rainbow
Whitesnake
Gillan
Ozzy Osbourne
AC/DC
Judas Priest
Thin Lizzy
Gary Moore
UFO
Van Halen
Kiss
Scorpions
Accept
Motörhead
Diamond Head
Iron Maiden
Saxon
Twisted Sister
Queensrÿche
Yngwie Malmsteen
Venom
Hellhammer/Celtic Frost
Bathory
Mercyful Fate
King Diamond
Manowar
Metallica
Slayer
Megadeth
Voivod
Sodom
Kreator
Death
Entombed
Obituary
Mayhem
Darkthrone
Cradle Of Filth
Triptykon
Candlemass
Rammstein
Dream Theater
Nightwish
Fear Factory
Guns and Roses
Nevermore
Gojira
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That too is a very comprehensive list...and I can see that that both you included Death and Thel Napalm Death so I wasn't far off thinking that you'd know about those two! :)
As far as Thin Lizzy goes I really don't know anything about them so can't say if they're metal or not.
As far as SOAD goes I do agree that their sound is very unique indeed. But like you said they only released 5 albums so is that really enough to have a big impact? Then again you can have a big impact with just one album though...so I do think that SOAD could be included if there is room.
I personally do not like Led Zeppelin but their influence was undeniable...BUT were they metal? They were the softest and the most commercial sounding out of the 3...I never put them in metal category...they are somewhere between rock and hard rock.
So far it seems that we can all agree on these:
Black Sabbath
Deep Purple
Dio
Ozzy
Rainbow
AC/DC
Alice Cooper
Judas Priest
The Scorpions
UFO
Iron Maiden
Metallica
Megadeth
Accept
Anthrax
Motörhead
Van Halen
Slayer
Candlemass
Cathedral
Pantera
Then KISS....Are they metal? I honestly don't care enough about them to say...but the songs that I have heard pretty much puts them more in the hard rock category than metal. BUT again...we have now already included AC/DC and Alice too so why not Kiss? Also eventhough I am not a fan I still have to admit they have had a huge impact on the music world...I guess one could even call them the originators of "stadium rock"?
With Kiss in there that would make the list 22 strong so far. With all of the "biggest classics" included...then I guess we could start looking at other genres as well...including back and death metal...
Venom
Death
Napalm Death
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I agree Charger ! :rockon:
We ask each question of what Metal or not. I would say that when it comes to the '70s, we use the term Hard Rock more naturally. Thin Lizzy is one of them. Metal? Certainly not, like UFO, Scorpions' 70's era, Led Zep, Kiss (which I recognize the quality today, although albeit belatedly !), But they undeniably influenced many groups of several different styles. Kiss marked Black Metal and Gene Simmons especially, it's obvious: corsp paint, attitude, fire eater, blood, Black and White colors ... even if some Trve BM purists refuse to admit it. Cronos of Venom is a big fan of Simmons.
Thin Lizzy influenced Maiden with his twin guitars, like Wishbone Ash. As for Zeppelin, some Page riffs were very heavy as early as 1969 when Plant already knew what it meant to shout while Bonham's strike force and rhythms had their influences on Heavy Metal.
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We definitely have bands that gave ideas that led to metal and then the metal bands themselves.
One could argue that Black Sabbath with Ozzy were more hard rock/stoner rock than metal, with the Dio-Gillan-Hughes-Martin lineups being actual metal bands. Reunion material with Ozzy is metal for sure.
But if we take a definition of "it was metal for the 70s", then we're looking at bands like Zeppelin, BOC, Queen, and Aerosmith that got tagged as metal even though nowadays we're likely to call them hard rock. Deep Purple in the 70s was closer to proper metal than most, but now they seem to have sailed on to hard rock seas in their Morse years.
And I think that if we go with "important" we have to consider bands that may have had minor output or fanbase, but which other metal acts cite as influences that got them to play a certain way or to pick up the guitar in the first place.
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That being said, I consider Rainbow's work with Dio to be metal - especially Rising and LLRNR. After that, they were mining a pop vein, with some nods towards harder material. But Rising in 1976 was for sure a metal album. So, are there other metal albums before that?
Sabotage by Black Sabbath I also consider to be a true metal album in terms of, well, everything. That's 1975. Paranoid from 1970 is a mixed bag of styles, but it does have some metal in it.
Deep Purple's Machine Head is part metal, part heavy blues, plus a pop single in Never Before. Burn is closer to metal, but doesn't go all the way like Rising does. DP's first full metal album would be, in my opinion, Perfect Strangers. And that may be really their only full metal album, now that I think of it... But stuff on In Rock and Fireball absolutely point the way towards metal.
Blizzard of Ozz for sure is a metal album.
Zep 1 and 2 point the way to metal, but they are firmly in the heavy blues camp.
Budgie comes to mind - that's a band that lots of other bands cite as an influence, and they definitely got a metal tune in "Breadfan". But do they have a full metal album?
Circling back to Uriah Heep - they were a band cited by many, many, MANY other bands as one whose sound they wanted to copy. And the Demons and Wizards album... if it's not a metal album, it's as close as one can be without being one. Very heavy, does the acoustic intro to a riffed-up thunderwagon that all the hair bands later copied, it's got it all and I think it's hard enough to be one of the first metal albums.
Hawkwind's Space Ritual should be considered... not as a metal album, but definitely as a major influence on future metal bands.
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One could argue that Black Sabbath with Ozzy were more hard rock/stoner rock than metal, with the Dio-Gillan-Hughes-Martin lineups being actual metal bands. Reunion material with Ozzy is metal for sure.
But if we take a definition of "it was metal for the 70s", then we're looking at bands like Zeppelin, BOC, Queen, and Aerosmith that got tagged as metal even though nowadays we're likely to call them hard rock. Deep Purple in the 70s was closer to proper metal than most, but now they seem to have sailed on to hard rock seas in their Morse years.
And I think that if we go with "important" we have to consider bands that may have had minor output or fanbase, but which other metal acts cite as influences that got them to play a certain way or to pick up the guitar in the first place.
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Sabotage by Black Sabbath I also consider to be a true metal album in terms of, well, everything. That's 1975. Paranoid from 1970 is a mixed bag of styles, but it does have some metal in it.
Circling back to Uriah Heep - they were a band cited by many, many, MANY other bands as one whose sound they wanted to copy. And the Demons and Wizards album... if it's not a metal album, it's as close as one can be without being one. Very heavy, does the acoustic intro to a riffed-up thunderwagon that all the hair bands later copied, it's got it all and I think it's hard enough to be one of the first metal albums.
I’ve always felt Uriah Heep were very borderline. They had too many other elements to be considered metal. Acoustic, proggy, pop, folk, harmonies, Hammond heavy and David Byron had a bit of a 60’s singing vibe about him.
A lot of the metal bands that came through in the 80’s never really talked about them much either. American metal bands always cited bands like Montrose, Kiss, Aerosmith, Alice Cooper, Ted Nugent Van Halen along with the prominent UK heavy rockers Zep, Sabbath, Purple, Priest, Lizzy and Maiden as major influences. Heep weren’t in that cool bracket. I know they sold a lot of albums and were extremely talented and creative, had the goth/fantasy thing going on and Lee Kerslake was a heavy drummer but I’ve rarely heard them mentioned by metal guys as their favourite band or biggest influence.
Dunno, maybe they were more important to the development of heavy metal than they are given credit for. I know Queen were heavily influenced by them but I just don’t think they could be considered as in the 50 greatest or most important metal bands of all time.
As for Sabbath, they were undoubtedly the heaviest band of their time and still hold up as heavy today, much moreso than their contemporaries besides Priest.
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Tyr I think I agree with you on Kiss so it should be there.
As for Uriah Heep....I'm with Jack on that one...granted I'm not a fan nor do I know much about them, but I have listened to the Demons And Wizards album and I can't see that being heavy metal, it's barely heavy rock. Progressive rock most certainly, but not heavy and thus most certainly not metal.
What about Queen then? I have never put them in the metal category either.
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Kiss shouldn’t even be up for debate. They were undoubtedly a heavy rock/metal band in the 70’s and their influence is undeniable.
Their studio albums never really captured just how heavy they were. It was their live shows where their heaviness and intensity came to the fore.
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Queen is definitely an influencer... but not actually graduated into metal. Aerosmith to me would be the same.
So what do you do for bands that were rock in the studio but metal on the stage?
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I’ve made a list of 57(originally it was 75 but I’ve managed to whittle it down) of what I think are/were the most important bands and artist to metal & most sub-genres. This isn’t a list of my greatest or favourites otherwise it would look quite different but a list of importance and influence. If there is a band you think should be there let me know but I most likely did originally have them in but had to cull them to shorten the list.
Now I have to somehow get it down to 50 :wall:
Black Sabbath
Led Zeppelin
Deep Purple
Judas Priest
Kiss
Alice Cooper
Scorpions
Rainbow
AC/DC
Motörhead
Van Halen
Iron Maiden
Saxon
Venom
Diamond Head
Mercyful Fate
Accept
Ozzy
Dio
Motley Crüe
Ratt
Queensrÿche
Fates Warning
Metallica
Slayer
Anthrax
Megadeth
Kreator
Sodom
Trouble
Candlemass
Saint Vitus
Manowar
Savatge
Helloween
Nightwish
Yngwie Malmsteen
Celtic Frost
Bathory
Mayhem
Darkthrone
Possessed
Death
Obituary
Morbid Angel
Napalm Death
Carcass
Corrosion of Conformity
D.R.I
Suicidal Tendencies
Pantera
Sepultura
Faith No More
Alice In Chains
Korn
Paradise Lost
Ministry
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Good call on DRI and Suicidal Tendencies.
I'd add Aria from Russia and then 2 more and make it a top 60 list. :smug:
But I didn't see any others missing, nor did I see any "WTF???" surprises.
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That's probably a very definitive listing right there Jack.
I can atleast agree with most of them...some bands that I don't know enough about though...
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Wow Jack had FNM on there! You could get rid of KORN and just have FNM because KORN was very influenced by FNM.
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Wow Jack had FNM on there! You could get rid of KORN and just have FNM because KORN was very influenced by FNM.
Well I could get rid of quite a few if I ventured down the track of certain bands influencing others that went on to start a sub-genre or movement. Korn are pretty much attributed to kickstarting Nu-Metal in the 90’s. FNM are harder to categorise, they practically sit alone with all the different styles they incorporated into their music.
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Speaking of FNM, would Jane's Addiction count?
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Speaking of FNM, would Jane's Addiction count?
Yep you could but they’re just not metal or heavy enough and another band that’s hard to categorise.
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Bon Jovi.
I hates 'em, but they're important because they took metal in a very strange direction... straight into preteen girl land. Took a lot of other bands with them and kinda ruined the late 80s for a lot of headbangers that thought maybe the whole world was turning metal in a *good* way.
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^Not metal enough and I think Motley Crüe and Ratt has got that aspect of metal covered.
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Yeah FNM are generally a genre hopping band. Definitely one of my favorites. I think they are the forefathers of Nu-Metal kind of like how Black Sabbath was the forefather of doom and metal in general! Mr. Bungle are also a very influential band and bands like KORN took influence from them as well. In the real early days of Mr. Bungle, they even played thrash metal. Songs were good enough to get Scott Ian from Anthrax and Dave Lombardo of Slayer to play on them for a series of concerts earlier this year.
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Yeah FNM are generally a genre hopping band. Definitely one of my favorites. I think they are the forefathers of Nu-Metal kind of like how Black Sabbath was the forefather of doom and metal in general! Mr. Bungle are also a very influential band and bands like KORN took influence from them as well. In the real early days of Mr. Bungle, they even played thrash metal. Songs were good enough to get Scott Ian from Anthrax and Dave Lombardo of Slayer to play on them for a series of concerts earlier this year.
Yep that’s definitely right. You can trace a lot lot sub-genres of metal back to the early works of Black Sabbath more than any other band from that period.
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^Not metal enough and I think Motley Crüe and Ratt has got that aspect of metal covered.
Yeah, but did they ever have concerts where 95% of the audience were all in elementary or middle school and the mom that got stuck with driving them all in? :)
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^Not metal enough and I think Motley Crüe and Ratt has got that aspect of metal covered.
Yeah, but did they ever have concerts where 95% of the audience were all in elementary or middle school and the mom that got stuck with driving them all in? :)
Yes which makes them even less metal :D
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^Not metal enough and I think Motley Crüe and Ratt has got that aspect of metal covered.
Yeah, but did they ever have concerts where 95% of the audience were all in elementary or middle school and the mom that got stuck with driving them all in? :)
Yes which makes them even less metal :D
Well... less metal for *adults*. I'd say they serve as a cautionary tale for bands one and all... be careful, or you may wind up making millions of dollars because you become a teen sensation!
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Bon Jovi is not metal...not by any standard. They are a rock band.
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Bon Jovi is not metal...not by any standard. They are a rock band.
:D
OK, OK, I surrender! Bon Jovi is not on the list.
So what 2 other bands would you add to Jack's list to make the top 60 list?
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Well he left out Cathedral...they should most certainly be there.
I don't know...Iced Earth perhaps...they were in the forefront of American style power metal in the early 90s...
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Bon Jovi is not metal...not by any standard. They are a rock band.
:D
OK, OK, I surrender! Bon Jovi is not on the list.
So what 2 other bands would you add to Jack's list to make the top 60 list?
Actually Bon Jovi is Metal - just the worse kind, that being Pop Metal. They are literally the embodiment and poster boys for said genre. IMHO!!
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I could vote for Cathedral and Iced Earth, along with Aria, to make it 60.
And Thel's post gives me another list idea...
:evillaugh:
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I had Cathedral in but took them out. Their debut dropped 7 years after Trouble’s and Saint Vitus debut and 5 years after Epicus Doomicus Metallicus. I know it’s a landmark album in the doom genre especially the slower heavier doom but I took them out on the basis it came a little later. If I put them in which one of Trouble, Saint Vitus or Candlemas should I take out? Or just have them as the big four of doom? What about Pentagram though?
I’m actually trying to cull it to 50 Zzzz not add more back in.
Just trying to remember the bands I took out.
Thin Lizzy
UFO
Saxon
Exodus
Overkill
Voivod
S.O.D
Dokken
W.A.S.P.
Cathedral
White Zombie
Slipknot
Lamb of God
System of a Down
Rammstein
Tool
Dream Theater
And maybe a one other
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Ah yes the other band was Type O Negative. Which with the others listed above made up my original list of 75.
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I have never heard of Trouble so I'd take that one out! :D
Oh yeah White Zombie should be on the list too I think...they were very instrumental in adding more to the horror metal scene.
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I can’t take Trouble out Charger. First 2 albums are classic.They weren’t doom all the time, they had uptempo songs as well but still tuned down and heavy like say Candlemass. Eric Wagner had a phenomenal voice, a little similar to Jon Olivia and could sing with so much despair in his voice. I actually think you’d really like them. Such an underrated band that should’ve achieved much bigger things.
As for White Zombie, they are hard to categorise. Their early stuff was more noise rock and punky. Their sound developed into more groove metal and eventually Industrial but Ministry was doing Industrial earlier. Misfits were probably the first to incorporate horror themes but they were closer to punk than metal.
You need to get some Trouble in your life Charger
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Yes Trouble is a great band! Love Psalm 9, The Skull and S/T the most!
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I have to agree with White Zombie being more industrial than metal. When we work on that list, they'll be up on it with Ministry, NIN, and KMFDM.
I'd love to do a stoner rock list, as well, but I'll hold off on it until we've got this hash settled.
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White Zombie’s Astro-Creep: 2000 is Industrial Metal, not the type of industrial music Nine Inch Nails was playing, but as I mentioned, Ministry was playing Industrial metal first.
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I was never much of a fan of industrial anything at first, so I lumped them all together. Since then, there's some songs that stood out to me, but it's still a genre I find difficult to get into.
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I’ve made a list of 57(originally it was 75 but I’ve managed to whittle it down) of what I think are/were the most important bands and artist to metal & most sub-genres. This isn’t a list of my greatest or favourites otherwise it would look quite different but a list of importance and influence. If there is a band you think should be there let me know but I most likely did originally have them in but had to cull them to shorten the list.
Now I have to somehow get it down to 50 :wall:
Black Sabbath
Led Zeppelin
Deep Purple
Judas Priest
Kiss
Alice Cooper
Scorpions
Rainbow
AC/DC
Motörhead
Van Halen
Iron Maiden
Saxon
Venom
Diamond Head
Mercyful Fate
Accept
Ozzy
Dio
Motley Crüe
Ratt
Queensrÿche
Fates Warning
Metallica
Slayer
Anthrax
Megadeth
Kreator
Sodom
Trouble
Candlemass
Saint Vitus
Manowar
Savatge
Helloween
Nightwish
Yngwie Malmsteen
Celtic Frost
Bathory
Mayhem
Darkthrone
Possessed
Death
Obituary
Morbid Angel
Napalm Death
Carcass
Corrosion of Conformity
D.R.I
Suicidal Tendencies
Pantera
Sepultura
Faith No More
Alice In Chains
Korn
Paradise Lost
Ministry
So I’m gonna go out on a limb here and put my head on the chopping block and narrow this down to 22 bands and the genres that have really mattered most.
The offshoot sub-genres were and are a thing but they still originated from a bigger and more established genre.
Example: Melodic Death, Grindcore, Technical Death, Death Doom, Prog Death, Death Core and on it goes all originate from, and or fall under the bigger banner/genre of Death Metal and the one band that is widely heralded as not only pioneers of death metal but also the greatest, is the band that even had Death as their name. But more about them later. Therefore Morbid Angel, Obituary, Napalm Death, Carcass and Paradise Lost can all go.
I can make a case for others to be culled on similar grounds and explain the reasoning as well but I won’t, instead I’ll just go ahead and cull them and explain the final 22
Black Sabbath(The most influential heavy band of them all, nearly every genre of metal can be traced back to the early works of Black Sabbath)
Deep Purple(The ultimate heavy jam band. Combined heavy rock riffs with organ sounds. Blackmore’s riffs and classically inspired solos have influenced generations of players)
Led Zeppelin(Love em or hate em their influence on heavy rock/metal is undeniable. Along with Sabbath and Purple make up the holy trinity of the first major heavy rock/metal bands)
Judas Priest(Bought a more metallic sound with a twin guitar attack and duelling solos along with high pitch operatic singing. They embraced the heavy metal tag and ran with it. British Steel kicked off a new era of metal in the 80’s)
Kiss(One of the earliest American metal bands. Theatrical, big over the top stage shows. Influenced many American heavy rock/metal bands that followed.
AC/DC(Took the blues boogie style of rock and heavied it up and went on to become one of the biggest selling bands of all time.
Rainbow(Proto power metal, Ronnies singing style and fantasy lyrical themes had a huge influence on metal and later what would be known as power metal. As above for Blackmore)
Motorhead(Bought rawness, speed and aggression into heavy rock n roll. Lemmy’s harsher vocals were quite extreme for their time. An influence of Venom and thrash)
Van Halen( Ushered in a new era of American heavy rock/metal. Eddie’s guitar playing inspired a new generation of guitar playing)
Iron Maiden(The most important band of the new wave of British Heavy metal movement. Inspired a lot of the 80’s metal bands with their twin harmonised style of guitar playing along with epic and historical themes)
Venom(The most extreme band up until that time. Inspiration for black metal and other forms of extreme metal)
Mötley Crüe(Virtually kicked started the LA glam/hair metal scene that became huge in the 80’s)
Metallica(Invented thrash purely and simply which also influenced other extreme metal styles. Ride The Lightning inspired other newer thrash bands to lift their game.
Slayer(Another thrash pioneer but also an inspiration of other forms of extreme metal like death and Black)
Death(Pioneered Traditional Death metal and also later incorporated technical/prog death and Melodic Death. Is regarded as one of the important and influential bands in metal history.
Helloween(Started out as speed metal but quickly morphed into style that has since been known as power metal)
Candlemass(Didnt create the doom sound but created the genre with Epicus Doomicus Metallicus)
Celtic Frost(Another pioneer in extreme and avant-garde metal)
Bathory(Pioneers of Scandinavian Black Metal)
Pantera(Pioneered a heavier groove style of metal which spearheaded metal into the 90’s)
Faith No More(One of the major alternative metal pioneers, combined funk, thrash and rap)
Korn(The forerunners of the Nu Metal generation)
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Brave effort, Jack, now I critique it in real time.
First of all, your reasoning is sound - for defining the progenitors of a style. Regardless of the other bands that followed suit within that genre, *someone* got the ball rolling. I agree in principle with your reasoning.
Now to the list...
Agree on Sabbath being critical to all genres of metal/heavy rock. I'd specify that it's Sabbath type I, with Ozzy and Bill that would qualify here. Dio gets his nod with Rainbow.
DP - the Mk2 lineup here.
LZ - yep. Even if it's a case of gangsta recognizing gangsta, they need to be here. Leaving them out of the list would be like trying to explain the water cycle without discussing clouds.
Judas Priest - The translation of NWOBHM is "sounds like Judas Priest". :smug:
Kiss - I didn't think of them at first, but Jack is right, here. Emphasis on their first incarnation as the biggest influence on the kids.
AC/DC - Hmmm... were they really a pioneer, or just a regular rock band that made things a little louder and a little heavier? I'll go with pioneer, actually, now that I think of a big number of bands that took the AC/DC formula and ran with it to make some really heavy music. That sound lives on in those other bands' work. AC/DC was also more consistent in their sound than, say, Heavy Metal Kids. (Fun fact - the singer of HMK was approached to replace Bon Scott, due to that singer's incredible vocal likeness to Bon.) I'd underline the Bon Scott years as the biggest influences.
Rainbow - yep. This is where the string section got attached to the metal band. With Dio, they were definitely metal. After that, well... not a lot of influencing, then...
Motorhead - Punk's ugly sister. Or brother. I'm not sure. But they killed my lawn, and I'm the better for it. Also an influence on hardcore punk.
Van Halen - the lineup with Mr. Roth, of course. Eddie made it look easy and Dave made it look fun.
Iron Maiden - I'd say their influence is subtle, since it's layered over Judas Priest. But it's in there, especially when you listen to bands from outside of the USA/Canada/Western Europe.
Venom - Jack's on the money here.
Crue - Ditto.
Metallica - I'd pick at this one... is it Metallica alone or Metallica/Megadeth? Given that Mustaine was in both but never recorded with Metallica, I dunno... one of those chicken/egg things. Given that you've got slots for Slayer and Death and Venom, I'd say you could make one more slot for Megadeth.
Slayer - "I'd like some death thrash metal, please." "Have you tried Slayer before?" "No, can't say that I have." "Well, you simply must..."
Death - Like Venom and Slayer, I have no question this is where a genre starts.
Helloween - they deffo took the power metal thing seriously.
Candlemass, Celtic Frost, Bathory - not all that familiar with these bands, so I'll trust others' judgments here.
Pantera - yes, they made that groove all-important. Points to them.
FNM - I agree. They were the first with a LOT of things.
Korn - kinda like LZ for me. I'm no fan of NuMetal, but it happened, so the story must be told.
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So I brought up Megadeth. I'd also put in a protest vote for Scorpions and Suicidal Tendencies. Scorps because of their sound and influence all through Europe. They proved you could rock successfully with an accent, giving hope to people singing in non-native languages everywhere. Suicidal Tendencies were actually a thrash band that I heard before I heard either Metallica or Megadeth.
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Well time wise Metallica came first (although ofcourse lot of those classic songs were written by Dave Mustaine but still it was Metallica), so I do think if you have to choose one from the big 4 it would have to be Metallica...even if Megadeth held the torch better in later years withe Metallica "selling out" as some like to say.
Slayer also was such a different beast that it needs a mention for sure.
Iron Maiden might not have influenced so much as they like you said zzz drew a lot from Priest, but they did make it more accessible to the masses...and they did (again eventhough they didn't invent it) bring the galloping riffing to the forefront of metal.
I guess (not knowing Bathory or Celtic Frost) my only question mark in Jack's list would be Faith No More...I know very little of the band but from what I've heard I don't know...Was Alternative metal a thing already back then? and were they even that "metal"?
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Thanks for your thought out responses Zzz and Charger. I left Megadeth out purely on chronological order. I would’ve actually even have put Anthrax in before them, although I do love Megadeth much much more, so much more they’re in my top 5 favourite bands of all time.
Anyhow, let’s breakdown the thrash timeline
Metallica - Hit The Lights(Released June 14 1982 on the first Metal Massacre compilation. Note: Mustaine did not play on this recording)
Metallica - Kill Em’ All(Released July 25th 1983, Mustaine had writing credits on The Four Horseman, Jump In The Fire, Phantom Lord & Metal Militia)
Slayer - Show No Mercy(Released Dec 3 1983)
Anthrax - Fistful Of Metal(Released January 1984)
Slayer - Haunting The Chapel EP Released June 1984)
Metallica - Ride The Lighning(Released July 27 1984, Mustaine had writing credits on title track & The Call Of Ktulu)
Anthrax - Armed and Dangerous EP( Released February 1985)
Slayer - Hell Awaits(Released March 1985)
Exodus - Bonded By Blood(Released April 25 1985, recorded July 1984)
Megadeth - Killing Is My Business...and Business Is Good( Released June 12 1985)
So as you can see, their was a few thrash releases before Megadeth’s debut, not a lot in the scheme of things between between 83-85 but Metallica & Slayer alone had 2 full length albums beforehand. But there’s no question that Dave Mustaine had a hand in creating thrash with his early stint in Metallica and even taking it to a more technical level with his riffing style in Megadeth.
As for Maiden, I think their influence is immense in quite a few facets, more than you think. I’ve listened to a lot of metal over the years and hear sections of songs that sound so similar to Maiden. As I mentioned, the harmonised guitar melody’s alone was quite influential.
Have a listen to Slayer’s debut Show No Mercy, you can hear Maiden all over it.
Exhibit A
Scorpions was a tough one to leave out. They represent the euro side and no doubt influenced a lot of young euro rock and metal heads to pick up an instrument and later had an influence in the US, but was their musical influence anymore or at the level of Purple, Sabbath, Zeppelin, Priest, Motörhead, Maiden and even UFO had in those markets? Their first few albums aren’t all all that heavy, more psychedelic rock and not all that riff oriented either. They did eventually hone their music to a more straight ahead heavy rock and riff style but metal was well & truly getting established by then.
They probably would’ve been the next band chosen tbh but I also think Accept(another
German band)had an influence(more in the 80’s)
As for FNM Charger. Is this metal enough?
If I make this list 25. Who would you add?
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^^^^
I don't know honestly...musically I think that's closer to hard rock than metal and vocally it's closer to the late 90s hiphop metal delivery. I do have to say though (eventhough they are most certainly no my cup of tea) FNM probably was pretty influential on that whole genre of alt/hiphop style metal, even if they weren't quite as "heavy" musically.
So yeah I suppose they can be on the list.
As for the thrash timeline...that's awesome work again as usual. And 100% accurate as well ofcourse!
I personally know very little about Scorpions (as I've never listened to them much for some reason) but I would still say that they probably were one of the forerunners of non UK Eurometal...
As for the additions ALICE COOPER needs to be there, even if they weren't 100% metal...they did create the whole horror rock scene and brought it out to the masses.
Megadeth also brought a lot to the the whole thrash table even if they were bit "late" in the game...Anthrax also brought a lot of different vibes to the thrash scene...mainly humor. I think the big 4 could be represented in whole.
Then DIO. They brought a lot of "magic" to the metal world. Ronnie's lyrics were unlike anything else. It would be a crime to NOT include DIO.
EDIT:
Oh and just listened to some Trouble....they're not bad...not at all...might have to check them out!
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^^^Awesome, they’re right up your alley Charger.
They’d all be valid inclusions you’ve mentioned. But I’ve been conscious to not just make this a favourites list. I’ve left a lot of my all time favourites out. I feel Ronnie gets a doff of the hat with both Sabbath and Rainbow. You could make a case for Dio and Ozzy as pioneering metal solo artist. They are the two that instantly come to mind when you think of solo artist in metal and as far as I’m concerned there’s been none bigger or better.
Alice was another that was hard to leave out. He was definitely a pioneer in the whole shock rock genre, wasn't very heavy in the 70’s but he did influence later heavier bands. Also ticks the solo artist box. He’s the one I’d most be inclined to add.
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Well yes you do have point about not including DIO or Ozzy...although DIO was more of a band effort all along where as Ozzy was (even if not originally intented as such) a solo project.
But yeah I follow your logic there.
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Well, if we look at this again as a list of 50, knowing the top 25 gets us closer to figuring out rankings for the higher and higher ranks. Or at least, the middle of the top... I think 1-4 go Sabbath, Purple, Zeppelin, Priest.
:ozzy: :gillan: :plant: :priest:
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Faith No More is metal when they want to be.
https://youtu.be/th_KKvb9yO8
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The more I’ve thought about it the more tempted I am to add a metalcore band to this list. Love it or hate it(personally I mostly hate it) there’s no denying it’s become a well established and very very popular genre. Bands like Killswitch Engage, All That Remains, Avenged Sevenfold, As I Lay Dying, Trivium etc that mix the clean singing with the death growls has become a genuine thing and is super big among the younger metal generation. I just go no clue who does it best or who’s been the most influential. Maybe Thel can help me out on this one?
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The more I’ve thought about it the more tempted I am to add a metalcore band to this list. Love it or hate it(personally I mostly hate it) there’s no denying it’s become a well established and very very popular genre. Bands like Killswitch Engage, All That Remains, Avenged Sevenfold, As I Lay Dying, Trivium etc that mix the clean singing with the death growls has become a genuine thing and is super big among the younger metal generation. I just go no clue who does it best or who’s been the most influential. Maybe Thel can help me out on this one?
Hatebreed are my personal fav Metalcore band. There are plenty of great bands in this genre IMHO. Avenged Sevenfold, Trivium, Bullet For My Valentine, Underoath, Converge and several others have some really good albums. The problem with this genre though is that there is a saturation of groups trying to be the next Killswitch Engage. This has led to shitty bands like say Black Veil Brides being sold as the next big thing in Metalcore. I am by no means an expert on this genre but I do listen to several bands that are classifed as such.
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Yeah not sure there is one definite band you can pinpoint that started it, also I don’t think the early metalcore bands were doing the scream and growley vocals with the clean melodic singing either. Killswitch Engage seem to be a popular metalcore band that’s been around a long time though. Thanks for your input Thel.
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I concur with the Angry Ozzy. It's an important genre, be sure to add it to the list.
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Ok so after giving it considerable thought I’ve finally settled on my definitive 25 most Important/influential metal bands of all time adding the final 3 to bring it to a conclusive 25.
All these bands have been an influence on pioneering a genre or creating a new sound that has stood the test of time and not just been a flash in the pan or minimal genre or sub-genre.
Black Sabbath(The most influential heavy band of them all, nearly every genre of metal can be traced back to the early works of Black Sabbath)
Deep Purple(The ultimate heavy jam band. Combined heavy rock riffs with organ sounds. Blackmore’s riffs and classically inspired solos have influenced generations of players)
Led Zeppelin(Love em or hate em their influence on heavy rock/metal is undeniable. Along with Sabbath and Purple make up the holy trinity of the first major heavy rock/metal bands)
Judas Priest(Bought a more metallic sound with a twin guitar attack and duelling solos along with high pitch operatic singing. They embraced the heavy metal tag and ran with it. British Steel kicked off a new era of metal in the 80’s)
Kiss(One of the earliest American metal bands. Theatrical, big over the top stage shows. Influenced many American heavy rock/metal bands that followed.
AC/DC(Took the blues boogie style of rock and heavied it up and went on to become one of the biggest selling bands of all time.
Rainbow(Proto power metal, Ronnies singing style and fantasy lyrical themes had a huge influence on metal and later what would be known as power metal. As above for Blackmore)
Motorhead(Bought rawness, speed and aggression into heavy rock n roll. Lemmy’s harsher vocals were quite extreme for their time. An influence of Venom and thrash)
Van Halen( Ushered in a new era of American heavy rock/metal. Eddie’s guitar playing inspired a new generation of guitar playing)
Iron Maiden(The most important band of the new wave of British Heavy metal movement. Inspired a lot of the 80’s metal bands with their twin harmonised style of guitar playing along with epic and historical themes)
Venom(The most extreme band up until that time. Inspiration for black metal and other forms of extreme metal)
Mötley Crüe(Virtually kicked started the LA glam/hair metal scene that became huge in the 80’s)
Metallica(Invented thrash purely and simply which also influenced other extreme metal styles. Ride The Lightning inspired other newer thrash bands to lift their game.
Slayer(Another thrash pioneer but also an inspiration of other forms of extreme metal like death and Black)
Death(Pioneered Traditional Death metal and also later incorporated technical/prog death and Melodic Death. Is regarded as one of the important and influential bands in metal history.
Helloween(Started out as speed metal but quickly morphed into style that has since been known as power metal)
Candlemass(Didnt create the doom sound but created the genre with Epicus Doomicus Metallicus)
Celtic Frost(Another pioneer in extreme and avant-garde metal)
Bathory(Pioneers of Scandinavian Black Metal)
Pantera(Pioneered a heavier groove style of metal which spearheaded metal into the 90’s)
Faith No More(One of the major alternative metal pioneers, combined funk, thrash and rap)
Korn(The forerunners of the Nu Metal generation)
Ministry(Pioneered the Industrial metal movement of the 90’’s which is still enjoys a large following in 2020 with Rammstein currently one of the biggest metal acts in the world.
Nightwish(While incorporating symphonic elements into metal dates back to Celtic Frost of the mid 80’s Nightwish was one of the pioneers of combining a power metal style with a full orchestral & operatic style that has become an extremely popular and genuine sub-genre of metal, particularly in Europe)
Killswitch Engage(Not the definitive pioneers of Metalcore music per se but they were pioneers of a more popular style of metalcore which fused metalcore and melodic death metal, combining death growls and aggressive screaming with clean singing passages which has since defined the genre and become a genuine force and commercial success)
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I'd say of Judas Priest's British Steel album - you can debate which albums were metal or proto-metal before that release, but that album is the archetype for metal albums to come. There's no question of it being proto-metal: It is quite definitely metal, through and through. You could even say that before British Steel, bands were somewhat metal, more or less, depending on their mood. After British Steel, bands were either metal or they weren't. We knew exactly what image a metal band should have, how it should sound, how it should play and have attitude. If a band didn't want to be labeled as a metal group, it knew what not to do. If it did want the label, then it knew *exactly* what to do.
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Well there were metal albums released before British Steel too...namely Iron Maiden. And that most certainly was not "proto metal" in anyway.
Saxon's Wheels Of Steel also came out before British Steel but that might go more to the proto metal category...
Motörhead's Overkill was released already in 1979...but Motörhead always did categorize themselves as a rock band, but Overkill most certainly was atleast proto metal if not actual metal.
I'm sure there are others too...
But British Steel was influential for sure but it wasn't the "first" to come out though.
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No, it wasn't the first, but it was definitely out there in a big way and had a lot of airplay. It broke through whatever barriers held other bands back and opened the way for a lot more acts to get on the radio.
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^^I agree Z. The whole metal movement or “metal culture” is heralded to have kicked off in England in 1980 and Judas Priest and Iron Maiden were at the forefront setting the scene with British Steel and Maidens S/T debut which incidentally were released on the same day or very close to. There’s no doubt there was metal or “proto”metal albums before then, I think you’s have forgotten an important one in “Killing Machine” released in 78 but the heavy metal “cultural phenomenon” of if you will is time stamped to early 1980.
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Put another way, name a metal band that had bondage gear as part of its outfit before Judas Priest... or name one that *didn't* have spikes and leather after JP broke out with British Steel! :smug:
OK, I'm sure they could be listed, but I think I made my point. :)
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I do have two little gripes about that list though...
Choosing two rather marginal styles of metal to be represented here seems bit off...speaking of Ministry and Killswitch Engage ofcourse. There aren't that many bands out there that do those styles...well not big bands anyways.
I also just started thinking that women are very under represented here. So I'd replace either one of those with Warlock as they pretty much paved the way for women in metal and ofcourse Doro Pesch has since become the rightful metal queen. Not only has she inspired a lot of women to get into metal she also has proven that women can rock just as hard as men. So I would say her influence has been much greater than that of Ministry or KE on any day.
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I respectfully disagree Charger. Metalcore is big. You only have to look at the pure numbers sales and attendance wise and the amount of the younger generation that are into it. It’s always heavily represented at the big metal festivals as well. Been around 20 odd years now.
Industrial was touch and go, but it did have an extended run throughout the 90’s with Ministry, Godflesh, KDFM, Marylyn Manson, Rob Zombie, Fear Factory used industrial elements, Nine Inch Nails although not really that metal were huge, Rammstein were and are are still huge. Heck even W.A.S.P., Motley Crüe and Alice Cooper dabbled in Industrial. It’s not as big as it was in the 90’s but Rammstein are one of the biggest metal acts in the world right now.
As for women in metal, I’d say Girlschool were one of the original girl metal groups and Lita Ford flew the flag for women in metal throughout the 80’s.
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Well honestly I don't know much about either styles...part from Rob Zombie ofcourse but I categorize him to the horror rock genre with Alice Cooper anyways.
Girlschool was before Warlock yes, but they weren't pure metal though...much more hard rock oriented...same goes for Lita Ford's solo stuff...which actually I guess was even more mainstream 80s rock than hard rock.
Metalcore for me is a totally unknown genre...
But I know you know better than me Jack but still think that I'd put Warlock in instead of Ministry, just so that women would be bit more represented. But yeah 25 is still a pretty short list so some great ones and influential ones are bound to be left out.
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I think your point about women is a fair one Charger, and no doubt Doro did pave the way for the current wave of women in metal, but is women in metal a genre? Shouldn’t it just be equal and their music should stand on its own whether it’s a man or woman fronted metal group?
My point on Industrial is that it got that big in the 90’s that even long time rockers like Alice, Motley and Wasp dabbled in it. Come to think of it I think even Guns ‘N Roses did also. There were other metal bands as well that weren't industrial metal bands but they did dabble in that territory for an album.
You might have to just trust me on Metalcore
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Well no it's not a genre ofcourse but what I'm saying is that there ARE great metal groups lead by women that might deserve a place on a list like this.
I have never really looked at industrial like that. But yeah I guess it was big in the 90s.
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I am coming around to your women in metal theory. The influence is there even if it’s not a genre. Got no idea who I would take out though. Hmmm...How about Rainbow? >:D :P
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I am coming around to your women in metal theory. The influence is there even if it’s not a genre. Got no idea who I would take out though. Hmmm...How about Rainbow? >:D :P
:rage: