The Community
General Category => Matters of Life and The Universe => Topic started by: Vyn on September 11, 2018, 07:03:30 AM
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Perhaps some of you have read the stories already, but the recent drama with tennis star Serena Williams prompted an editorial cartoonist in Australia to publish this:
(https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/e062f6c7325e5b96b12c306e91e1e25e?width=1024)
There are people who claim the cartoon is both racist and sexist. The artist and the paper he works for claim it is in no way either of those things.
I say it isn't racist or sexist.
What say you?
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My wife and I got into a argument about this last night. No I don't think it's racist or sexist.
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Given what I've seen of the incident, I think this acurately reflects what happened, so it is neither racist or sexist. She had a tantrum and smashed her racket.
The argumant should be if the original incident was sexist (I don't think anyone has claimed it was racist), and I just don't see where the sexist angle has come from. The umpire is known to be a stickler for the rules, her coach has said he did coach from the stand (regardless of if she saw his gestures), and everything after that was in line with tennis guidelines. What may be an issue is if the rules are being applied consistently... the umpire in this instance would have been inconsistant if he hadn't ruled the matter as he did.
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:)) The cartoon is pretty darn funny. No racism or sexism, but these days that's the automatic excuse if anything goes against a black person or a woman. Never their fault. Sad.
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It's neither. Williams was honestly and humorously depicted by a cartoonist as a dummy spitting spoiled brat simply because she did carry on like a dummy spitting spoiled brat.
Nothing more to it...But again, just another case of political correctness gone mad on unsocial media and the like.
Can't believe this has made world news btw.
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I just saw it now for the first time. I looked over some other stuff done by the cartoonist. I don't think he *meant* it as racist or sexist.
However, he certainly did employ artistic motifs commonly associated with "Little Black Sambo" types of illustration, which are associated with denigrating portrayals of persons based upon race - racism, for short.
Yes, it's racist. Unintentionally so, but it is.
Wright's other works bear examination. I've looked over other depictions he's done of women in politics, and they seem quite positive to me. He's recently criticized a male tennis player for bad behavior and I believe that's what he was getting after here. He just picked the wrong way to draw Serena Williams to criticize her meltdown at the match. Even though he's over-emphasized the lips on a number of other caricatures, he should have known better than to go that route and invoke 19th century stock methods of portraying Africans.
He certainly avoided those in his work that portrayed Australian first peoples in a positive light. His caricature of Adam Goodes was very favorable and did not employ any of that Black Sambo stuff.
On to the sexist part... if it's racist, it's easy to tag other -ists on it as well. Is the portrayal itself sexist, in that it is unfairly criticizing a woman for doing something that men do all the time? I don't think so. The fact that he called out bad behavior from a male player shows that the cartoonist is applying an even standard in his targets.
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It's a sensitive topic, to be sure, and the cartoonist went in with an opinion and touched on raw nerves. That's what editorialists do for a living, though.
In Williams' case, she's got a long history of critics going after her with racially and sexually charged language and imagery. They usually do go together when her detractors employ such imagery.
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:)) The cartoon is pretty darn funny. No racism or sexism, but these days that's the automatic excuse if anything goes against a black person or a woman. Never their fault. Sad.
this.
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I'm going to disagree strongly with the "never their fault" line.
We just finished week 1 of pro football here in the USA, and there were plenty of bad coaching decisions, bad play calls, bad reactions, bad everything. There are black head coaches that made bad calls, and nobody was saying that they should be replaced with a white coach... and nobody was saying that criticism of the black coaches was racially motivated. 30 years ago, that could very well have been a thing in the USA. It's not now.
It's a mental crutch to dismiss accusations of racism and sexism as being groundless, using always/never terms.
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Ofcourse it's not racists nor sexist nor anything..
But in this day and age you depict a black person in a humoristical/sarcastical way it's automatically racist. And if you do that to a woman it's automatically sexist...and if you do both it's:
:explosion1:
Which is absolutely ridiculous and the biggest symptom of this "political correctness" bullshit that has taken over the world.
I thought it was damn funny too and it indeed depicted the situation quite accurately in a very humorous way...just like a good caricature cartoon should.
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OK, for those who say it was neither racist or sexist... what would be racist or sexist, in your opinion? Not asking to necessarily draw a line of demarcation because I don't think it's necessarily as clear as that. But what is in that area?
For example, Typhon recently made a comment - which he did identify as racist - about my recent dive into funk and soul. Yes, he identified it as a joke, but also as racist. So at least there's that data point to work with. Certainly, more strongly worded phrases would also be racist, but are there also lesser things that are also racist, even if not to the same degree?
Same question with sexism. That's one reason some of us are here, because of some very offensive comments made elsewhere. Not all of us are here for that, but there's also that data point to work from.
Disclaimer: yes, I used to be a teacher. So that's why I like to start discussions instead of lectures, as we tend to learn better from discussions.
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Can we say if she would have made the same comments if the referee had been a black woman? I'm not sure .
Would a less famous white female player have made so much drama? Of course not . And if the referee had been a black man, the young white woman would not dare for fear of being accused of racism.It becomes systematic and too easy nowdays. Communitarianism has a bright future ahead of it.
She takes advantage of the ambient climate: you are a man in conflict with a woman so you are sexist. moreover if this woman is black you are therefore also racist. We can also do a reverse analysis: she shows sexism and anti-white racism by default against this man. Her "victim" position in front of medias is outrageous.
You lost Serena, period, and please, buy a decent outfit for your next match.
Beyond this debate, am I racist because I talk about it? According to the "political correctness" I could think yes, according to me , no but I can't close my eyes ad my mouth if I'm not agree with something like that because thankfully I can do it.
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Still, what is an example of something you think is racist or sexist? Not where someone else puts the marker at where they see a limit, but where you see a limit.
For example, when I was teaching, there were conversations I had with other teachers that wanted to leave the school I taught at because, their words, "The demographics have changed." The school population was 95% white when I was a student there. It was around 40% white when I taught there. They did not cite poor parent involvement or administrative pressures or student behavior - the "demographics" were all they talked about. To me, that is racism. It is very softly put, but racism it is.
A worse example was when the German teacher was angry with an English teacher who happened to be Jewish. She coldly said to him, "We should have put you *all* in the ovens when we had a chance!"
For sexism, when I did tech support for Windows 95, every now and then a customer would ask to have a different support tech because they did not want to work a technical issue with a woman. The managers there would explain that either the person would work with the tech assigned to the case or the person could choose to not have support. Sexism on the part of the customer, good support from the management of Microsoft.
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OK, for those who say it was neither racist or sexist... what would be racist or sexist, in your opinion?
You need an example? Okay, you've got it. Change the line the umpire says in the cartoon to. "Can't you just let the ni**er win". Perhaps now you understand the difference.
And another thing. I don't think you quite understand what a "caricature" is.
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Or have the umpire talking to a "male" tennis player saying "can't you just let her win" meaning I know you are the superior sex but for her sake let the little gal win. That would be sexist.
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Thanks for the comments.
@Typhon, I do understand caricature, but also that there are some stock elements that just go with racist portrayals. Same thing as how I might have a LOT Of explaining to do if I said someone had a "niggardly" attitude about money, going with a caricature that emphasized her lips and drew her hair style as a sort of tribal exaggeration, not very far from what was in 1946's "Tintin in the Congo."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tintin_in_the_Congo
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/36/Angry_King_in_Tintin.JPG/220px-Angry_King_in_Tintin.JPG)
There's also the accusation of her opponent being "whitened" for the cartoon.
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Now, the same artist *has* taken positions supportive of women...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvhIw9zWIAAuZvX.jpg)
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He has also portrayed Aretha Franklin favorably:
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/d5bfaf2501533937f439060b37b2f4fe/5C1B384F/t51.2885-15/e35/38858560_226484781357563_2704088818033623040_n.jpg)
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Aaaaannnd, he's not necessarily a friend of the US' gun lobby...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWXKQX_VAAAuDFL.jpg)
I'd chalk up the Serena Williams thing to a lapse of judgment, assess the 15-yard penalty, and move on.
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I'm going to disagree strongly with the "never their fault" line.
We just finished week 1 of pro football here in the USA, and there were plenty of bad coaching decisions, bad play calls, bad reactions, bad everything. There are black head coaches that made bad calls, and nobody was saying that they should be replaced with a white coach... and nobody was saying that criticism of the black coaches was racially motivated. 30 years ago, that could very well have been a thing in the USA. It's not now.
It's a mental crutch to dismiss accusations of racism and sexism as being groundless, using always/never terms.
Just in case you think I missed it: The last statement in the above comment may have been your disguised way of calling me a moron. If it was, then just say it. I promise not to go crying to a mod that I am being attacked. But I assure you, I do not need a "mental crutch" to discuss anything. I said what I said because of what I have witnessed for the past 20 odd years. Whenever a crucial decision of some sort has gone against a black person, and they are asked if he or she believes that race had something to do with the decision, they always say yes. That is automatic.
Your football example was dumb. Nobody was fired or fined or suspended. It was just people doing their job. Some good, some not so good.
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No, Typhon, I'm not calling you a moron.
And my experience has been that racism does not automatically come up when a black person is asked if race had something to do with an adverse decision or experience. And even if it does come up, I've also seen it get walked back by the accuser, once he realized his error.
I'd say the football example wasn't dumb. When blacks first started playing at QB, I remember when they made mistakes hearing white people grumble that a white QB wouldn't have made the same errors. When blacks started coaching and made mistakes, there were whites that grumbled how a white coach wouldn't have made the same mistakes. Racism absolutely entered the picture in sports back then, and it will still do so today. Sports has been a very important part of the USA's civil rights history, not just in breaking the color barrier in various sports, but in athletes being able to use their prominence in sports to speak out about greater societal inequality.
I've seen racial determinants used in school discipline cases... both with teachers writing up black or Hispanic kids more often than whites as well as administrations coming back with directives that too many minority kids are getting written up and instituting quotas for disciplinary actions, both of which I found revolting. But had we not had the teachers going after the minorities, we wouldn't have had our hands tied as teachers in regards to sensible classroom discipline options.
As for that "always" in the public eye, I recall when, in the early 90s, the GOP went after Gangsta Rappers and called them all pretty much scum of the earth, scourges on our proud nation. The rappers didn't cry racism. They just started donating heavily to the GOP. Then the GOP stopped criticizing their supporters.
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^^^^^^
You're going off on a wild tangent again, which has nothing to do with what we were talking about. Your original comment was referring to last weekend's play, not the entire history of sports. Nothing happened last weekend that compares to the tantrum we saw from the crybaby.
The consensus of the Community = cartoon was not racist nor sexist. Put this one in your loss column and move on.
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^^^^^^
You're going off on a wild tangent again, which has nothing to do with what we were talking about. Your original comment was referring to last weekend's play, not the entire history of sports. Nothing happened last weekend that compares to the tantrum we saw from the crybaby.
The consensus of the Community = cartoon was not racist nor sexist. Put this one in your loss column and move on.
Wild tangent? I was pointing out the fallacy in saying that minorities are always playing the race card, as you asserted.
However, we can point out that those NFL players that protested during the national anthem received no penalty, even though the league could have moved to assess a penalty.
And while there's no question that Williams had a very public meltdown, it's also no question to me that the Australian cartoonist's portrayal of the same was inflammatory. For a bunch of white guys to see nothing racist or sexist in it... hardly conclusive, in my view. The conversation in this thread will eventually wind down, but I'll still maintain my view that the cartoonist made some unwise choices in his rendering of the incident and could have expressed his disdain without resorting to stock imagery reminiscent of Jim Crow and colonialist portrayals of Africans.
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Is this cartoon sexist? Not a chance. Is it racist? Some people might see it that way, I don't. Now THIS is racist:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6e7j0u
Skip to the 7:40 mark of this Popeye cartoon (if you wish) for a bonus history lesson.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dm2c_79U4AA4r6y?format=jpg)
^^So these cartoons of Serena obviously went under the PC police's radar?
The Herald Sun(Melbourne's biggest daily newspaper) has dug their heels in on this one.
Today's front page :)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dmz3QJWVsAAsegg?format=jpg)
On a side note I've actually met Mark Knight on a couple of occasions, he does the AFL premiers poster every year, a long standing tradition(equivalent to the Super Bowl champions) which is available straight after the Grand Final game at the ground. I've had some of my premiers posters personally signed by him when he's done signing sessions.
The guys actually recieved death threats over this and has had to have around the clock security at his house. Seriously how fucked up is that?
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I hate this PC crap. I am not a racist and not a sexist but they're fuckin' cartoons for God sake. It's ok to caricature
white people but as soon as you draw anyone else you're a racist.
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I hate this PC crap. I am not a racist and not a sexist but they're fuckin' cartoons for God sake. It's ok to caricature
white people but as soon as you draw anyone else you're a racist.
Could not agree with you more on this one!
The sad truth is that pretty much everyone else is protected under some stupid pc crap but a white male. You can call them racist, sexist, rapist, nazi what ever without any evidence or even a hint of truth and it always goes unnoticed and unpunished...I find that very disturbing indeed.
This is just another sad example of that.
And what is most funny (no not really funny but sad) it's usually not even the black's that are offended when something like this happens...like in this case it was that abnoxious writer JK Rowling...an insanely rich WHITE woman from the UK who started this whole discussion again...and I firmly believe that it has nothing to do with her finding it "racist" or whatnot she's just doing it to stir shit up and get her name out there since it's been a while from Harry Potter and she fears people might forget who she is...
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And while there's no question that Williams had a very public meltdown, it's also no question to me that the Australian cartoonist's portrayal of the same was inflammatory. For a bunch of white guys to see nothing racist or sexist in it... hardly conclusive, in my view. The conversation in this thread will eventually wind down, but I'll still maintain my view that the cartoonist made some unwise choices in his rendering of the incident and could have expressed his disdain without resorting to stock imagery reminiscent of Jim Crow and colonialist portrayals of Africans.
Will somebody please make a caricature of this guy? Place him in the same pose as Serena, but looking like a spoiled brat kid stamping on his computer keyboard instead of a racquet, with the caption reading, "waah, waah, waah, all you guys are wrong and I'm right, waah, waah, waah." :boohoo:
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^^He's doing nothing but offering his opinion, he's detailed on why he's formed that opinion and his sticking to it. Just because you disagree with it doesn't make him wrong or you right or vice versa :zomg:
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The guys actually recieved death threats over this and has had to have around the clock security at his house. Seriously how fucked up is that?
That is...disturbing.
I can only imagine that those threat-makers have lives of peaches and cream such that the really bad shit they have to be burdened with, the kind of thing that makes them want to kill someone, consists of an editorial cartoon that mocks a professional tennis player channeling John McEnroe.
The most egregious issue I see with this entire fiasco is that Serena Williams succeeded in making that match all about her, and continues to do so. The stories should be about the winner. What a piss-poor display of sportsmanship. Serena Williams has won that tournament over 20 times, in spite of the (according to her) rampant sexism and racism she has to continually overcome. Serena lost to...oh...what's her name...oh yeah, Naomi Osaka. Who, as it has been related to me, is also a female of color. Who happens to be skinny and wears a blonde pony tail. As was depicted in the cartoon under discussion. But that somehow means the artist "whitened" her. And amazingly enough she managed to not get penalized by the same judge that penalized Serena. Is that judge just randomly sexist and racist? Did Naomi just get lucky?
Fuck those drooling neanderthals. Don't they realize that there is actual, real, racism and sexism in the world and that their constant yammering about what amounts to nonsense only obfuscates the real thing?
And now the artist of a cartoon is having his life threatened? Unreal. Are those people Muslims or something, and they think Serena is the prophet?
Congratulations Naomi! You won fair and square, and deserve your moment in the sun that sadly keeps getting overshadowed.
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^^He's doing nothing but offering his opinion, he's detailed on why he's formed that opinion and his sticking to it. Just because you disagree with it doesn't make him wrong or you right or vice versa :zomg:
He implied that just because we are a group of white guys, that our conclusions are worthless. If you don't see a problem with that narrow minded thinking, then that is your business. But I have a problem with someone believing that I can't see straight just because I'm a white guy and the crybaby is black.
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Death threats are never a good thing. I'm pretty sure we all agree on that. Fighting intolerance with more intolerance is going about fighting intolerance in the wrongest way possible.
And if it's not even really intolerance - as Vyn mentioned, do a better job of picking your battles, for goodness' sake - then it's not fighting intolerance, but *spreading* it.
And for that always/never thing... we have an unfolding situation here in Dallas. An off-duty police officer shot a black man. She claims she thought she was at her own apartment and shot him as an intruder before she realized she was at *his* apartment. There are witnesses who have details in their accounts that differ from her details, but the core of her story is what we're dealing with here.
There's a few personalities here in Dallas that, yes, do *always* go immediately to the race question. Not everyone, but those particular individuals, yes. So I'd agree with Typhon that there will always be someone to come forward with a cry of -ism in just about every incident possible. It's just that not all of those persons gain traction.
Because most everyone here is considering it as a case of a police officer behaving in an undisciplined fashion. We do have questions about whether or not her status as a police officer colored the investigation in a way to unfairly exculpate her actions or give her preferential treatment. But racism is not really being considered here. Neither is sexism, really.
The guys going around SMU campus giving Nazi salutes and handing out homophobic and racist handbills... those are the racist nut cases we're dealing with of late.
@Typhon, I didn't say what you put forward was worthless. I said it wasn't conclusive to me, as in, it did not change my stance. I'm also not really saying you're wrong or that I'm right. I'm just saying where I stand on the matter and that we may have a general consensus that agrees with your view, but we certainly don't have an absolute consensus, myself being the spoiler of that.
As a historian, I always find it important to seek out other voices to have a fuller picture of historical events. If I want to know about the status of Zoroastrians under the Abbasid Caliphate, I don't want to rely purely on Abbasid sources. I need to also read what the Zoroastrians had to say. If there are bystander accounts from Nestorian Christians and Babylonian Jews, even better. Abbasid sources alone, however, I do not consider conclusive.
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I'm just saying where I stand on the matter and that we may have a general consensus that agrees with your view, but we certainly don't have an absolute consensus, myself being the spoiler of that.
You like being the spoiler don't you? Come on...admit it! :problem: :awesome:
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I'm just saying where I stand on the matter and that we may have a general consensus that agrees with your view, but we certainly don't have an absolute consensus, myself being the spoiler of that.
You like being the spoiler don't you? Come on...admit it! :problem: :awesome:
Yes he does. :beerbang:
@Zzz, the problem I have is that you are looking at the cartoon the wrong way. A caricature exaggerates a person's features. That's what makes it a caricature. With your approach, one could find fault with every caricature of Serena that Jack posted. Then how could a caricature of her ever be acceptable? The answer is, it couldn't. Therefore, you are looking at it the wrong way, which is forming the opinion that you are trying to defend.
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I don't enjoy being the spoiler, but I'll fill the role when called upon to do so. :smug:
I do agree with your last post, Typhon, it's a matter of judgment and determining where you land on a sliding scale.
At the same time, I'm not in the crowd making any sort of demands to retract/redraw/censure/censor the paper or the artist. Editorial cartooning is going to hit nerves, whether I'm going "yeah!" or "ouch!" when I see the cartoon.
I agree that those most offended by the cartoon would likely also be offended by the images JtS posted. The one in the upper left, though, I see as an exaggeration not of Williams' physical features but of her aggressiveness on the court... and I don't want to go into the others because I agree that you made a good point with the slippery slope you described.