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General Category => Just for fun => Topic started by: Billy Underdog on May 08, 2018, 07:34:33 AM
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down goes the killer of metal
Just explain this one thing to me: How can the most Metal album by a band who was part of a genre that helped getting Metal back on track after the rape it endured during the 80's, atleast from the mainstream point of view, somehow "kill Metal"? Have you even listened to the album (as opposed to the pop hits from the later albums)?
It sounds like you've just jumped on the bandwagon of misunderstanding without actually having heard any of the material. Yes, Grunge killed everything that was fake and wrong about Metal and put it back on it's right path.
And this isn't just the usual banter about the two of us not always having the same musical taste, i'm genuinely curious.
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Yes, Grunge killed everything that was fake and wrong about Metal and put it back on it's right path.
/OT
Well that's just utter bullshit and you know it. There ain't nothing metal about grunge never was never will be. Grunge was hand crafted to be radio/mtv friendly commercial teenage boohoo angst shit that made metal pretty much disappear and all the classic bands suffered from it.
Grunge is/was the biggest cancer the rock world has ever had to endure. And no matter what anyone says my hatered towards that genre will never end.
A lot of people praised Soundgarden (for example) so I tried to listen to that but no...not my cup of tea eventhough that probably is the most "metal" of all of the grunge bands...and perhaps I hate them the least.
\OT
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I'll start with the Soundgarden part... I remember reading that Soundgarden said of themselves, "We play music like Black Sabbath, but without the parts that suck." I thought, OK, I'll give 'em a try.
Well, they played *some* stuff like Black Sabbath and found ways to make parts that sucked, but in a different way. I'm with Charger, I just could not get into Soundgarden the way I wanted to. I've tried to go back to their albums and give 'em a spin in my later years, but there's no undiscovered spark to be found in them.
Pearl Jam drove me up the wall. Eddie Vedder's vocals have always grated on me. I can respect some of their statements and philosophies and stuff, but the music? Not want.
Nirvana had the most punkified sound of the grunge bands, but I think they got overplayed here in the states, especially the stuff from their last two albums. Beyond that, I just didn't get into that kind of punk. I liked the punk of The Damned, The Clash, Motorhead, guys like that. Clean and fast, not muddy and fast.
Alice in Chains - never once liked their stuff. "Man in a Box" made me switch radio stations or turn off the radio faster than any other song.
All the great metal of the late 80s... squandered... because of grunge. Yes, I know thrash probably wasn't the best radio-friendly format... but that's radio's fault, not thrash's. Radio-friendly by the 1990s meant "just good enough so people keep listening, but not so good that they overshadow the commercials."
What I find interesting is that there are stoner bands that have vocalists that sound like Chris Cornell from Soundgarden - who was an EXCELLENT vocalist, in spite of the material he worked with - and those bands sound all right. Those bands are like Soundgarden without the parts that suck, to make an ironic paraphrase.
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There is nothing metal about Grunge huh?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU4L6THYAbM
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There ain't nothing metal about grunge never was never will be. Grunge was hand crafted to be radio/mtv friendly commercial teenage boohoo angst shit that made metal pretty much disappear and all the classic bands suffered from it.
No, now you're talking about the later poppier "Seattle sound", which ofcourse had it's origins in Grunge, but really had nothing to do with it.
Pretty obvious you've just heard the radio hits and haven't given the albums their due time, in other words; you don't really know what you're talking about. No, Pearl Jam and the latter two albums by Nirvana doesn't have much Metal in them, because it's not Grunge.
Grunge was an underground thing in Seattle in the late 80's, guys who played shitty bars for 50 of their friends because very few famous bands bothered to go touring that far north-west. Influenced by the Punk ethos, but sonically much more Metal.
Alice In Chains is probably the most Metal of the more known bands, but Man In The Box was a suck-o-rama that doesn't represent them at all.
Those quotes about Soundgarden wanting to sound like Sabbath and Zeppelin was a media thing, actually they were more influenced by Kiss and Ted Nugent, go figure... But it's all in the downtuned E-string, which gives it that punch. A trick they picked up from Buzz Osbourne of Melvins. Though not being Grunge as such, they were more the big brothers of Grunge, and even helped starting a new Metal sub-genre in Sludge Metal.
So, yeah, they weren't about dressing up, playing as many notes as possible and singing about pussy or dungeons & dragons (none of which is really Metal anyway), they were more about the riffing, the groove and the attitude.
After all these guys had grown up listening to 70's Metal/Hard Rock, Motörhead, Venom, Celtic Frost, even Thrash. And they did alot of warm-up gigs for Thrash bands.
I know it's a matter of taste for you, Charg, you prefer the poseur type Metal. But you can't disagree that bands like Pantera, Sepultura, Cannibal Corpse, Morbid Angel, Napalm Death, Darkthrone and Mayhem are Metal just because you don't like 'em, now, can you?
I think part of the reason you have desided not to like Grunge is because of it's connotations with Punk. Guess what; Iron Maiden was inspired by Punk. All "NWOBHM"-bands was. More so the Thrash-bands, and their descendants in the various Extreme Metal genres. Metallica, Slayer and Anthrax wouldn't sound the way they do/did if they weren't huge fans of Punk...
And i'm changing the thread name to something more fitting...
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Good call, JS.
Another one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EV2OTBh7Y
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So, yeah, they weren't about dressing up, playing as many notes as possible and singing about pussy or dungeons & dragons (none of which is really Metal anyway), they were more about the riffing, the groove and the attitude.
:haha3:
Ah no...no no no no
:nono:
:nono:
As I said it was about making songs fitting for mtv...by design to reach the teenage angsters. That's all it was.
I know it's a matter of taste for you, Charg, you prefer the poseur type Metal. But you can't disagree that bands like Pantera, Sepultura, Cannibal Corpse, Morbid Angel, Napalm Death, Darkthrone and Mayhem are Metal just because you don't like 'em, now, can you?
Poseur type of metal??? What in the name of holy fuck are you talking about now??? That's just...I mean...
:zomgwtfbbq:
Also who said I don't like Pantera? The death metal stuff...that I don't like.
I think part of the reason you have desided not to like Grunge is because of it's connotations with Punk. Guess what; Iron Maiden was inspired by Punk. All "NWOBHM"-bands was. More so the Thrash-bands, and their descendants in the various Extreme Metal genres. Metallica, Slayer and Anthrax wouldn't sound the way they do/did if they weren't huge fans of Punk...
And i'm changing the thread name to something more fitting...
I also don't really see any ANY connection between punk and grunge. Punk is about speed and doing stuff as far away from commercial side of things possible where as grunge is pretty much the complete opposite. Also I've said this before I've got nothing against punk....not fully my kind of music but I can easily say that it's about 8 gazillion million times closer to metal than grunge can ever even dream of.
Like I said this is my standing on the matter...and no ammount of jibber jabber will change that.
I
HATE
GRUNGE
That's just like...my opinion, man.
And I do just have to awesome ZZZ for sharing my views on this cause that's just....awesome. 8)
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As I said it was about making songs fitting for mtv...by design to reach the teenage angsters. That's all it was.
Once again; i say you've misunderstood Grunge from Seattle pop... :doh:
Listen to the album that kicked this discussion off (Bleach) and name one tune that's fitting for Mtv...
And you know what i meant about poseur Metal... ;)
Ok, you like Pantera. Not really my point, though. All the bands i mentioned are Metal, despite you not liking them... (this is called spoon-feeding, people)
Funny that you don't seem to remember saying you don't like Punk, though. Last time we had this convo you said the reason you don't like Grunge was because they couldn't play their instruments due to being inspired by Punk... (or something along those lines).
But if nothing else you've just proved you're biased and have no interest in revisiting your misunderstood perceptions based on a small fad that really had nothing to do with the genre in question in the first place. But, hey. We can't all be open minded... :)
As if Hard Rock and Metal haven't always played up to the (mostly male) teenage angst... :rofl:
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OK, I listened to the Soundgarden and Alice in Chains posted in this thread... and I'm not impressed enough to say I like the stuff, but I'm also not switching them off the radio/playlist just because they turn up. But they're really not my speed... I guess they're just over the line when it comes to what I'm looking for in a song. Although I'm not a big Hüsker Dü fan, that's more to my liking than these tracks. So what's the difference?
Well, a Hüsker Dü track usually brings a little more speed and a little more gothiness in its sound and style... that fast drumming with guitar chords that can sustain or fade, that's really good stuff in my book.
I'll go ahead and give Bleach a go, as I was judging it by its brethren albums, which I really didn't care for. If I can get through the whole thing and find something positive, I'll be honest and give it a point on the H/H game. :)
And if not, I'll be just as honest and go through what turned me off.
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Just to have a complete opinion, I will not listen to a whole discography of a band or another which I have heard several titles that, each time, I didn't enjoy. the only band I had a few vibrations for is Soundgarden, because of Chris Cornell's exceptional voice. A great talent.
Everything else leaves me cold.
the only indisputable positive thing that we can attribute to grunge is to have killed the shameful and embarrassing Glam Metal, now called Hair Metal but sadly didn't eradicate Bon Jovi or other Def Leppard. This movement didn't kill Metal at all , just all those lady wannabe posers which is a great thing.
Grunge seems to me more like a sub-genre of Rock but not Metal.
I don't like bands look, artworks ( a poor three dog, come on ...) , the most possible cheap attitude, these throbbing voices ... not my thing.
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The Melvins
Alice In Chains
Soundgarden
All are metal bands. Type their name and metal-archives.com and their will be a page. Case closed.
Joking aside, this is always a riveting subject. I am a 90's kid who grew up with this music on the radio and bands like AIC, Nirvana and Soundgarden shaped my musical taste and helped me discover bands like Black Sabbath. Surely things would be different if Poison and Cinderella were on the radio in my youth. I am so thankful the grunge movement kicked those ladies to the curb!
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The Melvins
Alice In Chains
Soundgarden
All are metal bands. Type their name and metal-archives.com and their will be a page. Case closed.
Joking aside, this is always a riveting subject. I am a 90's kid who grew up with this music on the radio and bands like AIC, Nirvana and Soundgarden shaped my musical taste and helped me discover bands like Black Sabbath. Surely things would be different if Poison and Cinderella were on the radio in my youth. I am so thankful the grunge movement kicked those ladies to the curb!
You nail it JS. Everything is here, in this magical moment of our lives called
adolescence or teenage years. This crucial time when we absorb and feel things like never before and after.
I'm a kid from the early 80's: AC / DC, Motörhead, Trust, Van Halen, Iron Maiden, Saxon, Tygers of Pan Tang, Tank, Rose Tattoo, Scorpions, Demon, and of course Black Sabbath - the Power era, according to to Billy! :D- and few years later Venom, HellHammer-Celtic Frost, Slayer, Metallica, Bathory, Mercyful Fate, Manowar and so on...
but no or little radio here for this music style , just badly recorded K7 with the vinyls of the mates. Truly the best sound !!
In fact , our zero years. :headbanger:
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I think that yes Grunge is a subgenre of Metal, with heavy influences from Punk and Classic Rock.
I am a big fan and was glad that they put an end to the bloated and tired Glam/Pop Metal.
:rockon:
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I'm GlamPop Metal went away... but not that it got replaced with Grunge.
I'm about halfway through Nirvana's Bleach and it's not working out well. The opening track was kinda desert-y, which I liked, but the rest of the album is getting into sludgey vocals. If The Melvins are to blame, then so be it. I really can't get into The Melvins AT ALL.
That's it, I can't take Bleach anymore, it's coming off. Got about 3/4ths of the way through and it was all sounding the same.
Stone Temple Pilots... there's another 90s band I got no love for.
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^^^ You're still not adressing the question if Grunge is Metal or not, though. If it's to your liking or not is a whole different matter. The fact that you think it lacks the speed of Punk/Post-Punk is just saying there's some Metal there...
And STP are more the "alternative Rock" that Charg have mistaken for Grunge...
But what seems to be the consensus over the last posts is that whether it's Metal, Metal derived or have nothing to do with Metal at all, IF they killed Metal, it was the wrong kind of Metal they killed. :)) A feat i would rather give Guns N' Roses the honors for, but that's a whole different discussion...
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Is it metal or not? I'm saying no, not metal. Stoner/desert/fuzz often steps into metal territory and when they don't go metallic, they go in the direction of a more honest and ballsy 70s hard rock sound.
Whether you like it or not, grunge *is* saddled with the commercialism that got lumped in with the less radio-friendly bands. But the instrumentation stayed roughly the same, even if the vocals had to be cleaned up for the songs to have some commercial potential.
And that's where the ultimate letdown in grunge comes for me. It's not metal, even though it sits awfully close to metal on the musical bench. It falls just short of of that mark and instead finds a way to make almost everything sound like a dirge or a lament or a selfish demand. It doesn't give me energy the way rock or metal does - it sucks the life out of me, making me either want to quit or take a nap or both.
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Have not listened to this for awhile! A good live rendition that goes to supersonic speeds!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX2arumaiPc
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I got to where the singing started and had to bail. No me gusta.
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Here is me gusta...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJGW6AY2cZE
The differences? They're there, because this song has what it takes to get me to play it over and over again. It's got some good metal sensibility in it, even if the melody isn't 100% metal like Saxon or Judas Priest. It's about as close as I can get to grunge, but that's because of the band's development into a stoner direction. Their second and third albums I like best. Their first? Ouch. There's good stuff on it, but then there are about 2 or 3 tracks that are just too damn sludgey for me to listen to again. I think of Cojones as grunge that grew up and figured out how to do better.
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But if nothing else you've just proved you're biased and have no interest in revisiting your misunderstood perceptions based on a small fad that really had nothing to do with the genre in question in the first place. But, hey. We can't all be open minded... :)
So it would be open minded of me to force myself to listen music I do not like? Well okay...I guess I'm not open minded then...but if that's your definition you should be listening to DIO all the time then as you are sooooo open minded and everything! :D
But yeah I'm biased...I don't like listening to music I don't like. So sue me.
Like I said, I tried to give Soundgarden and some other grunge bands (can't even remember the names) a chance but no...that stuff just isn't for me. Give me classic good old fashioned hard rock and metal any day...
I am fully in line with ZZZ and Tyr...
Also if I haven't made it clear I do also agree that Chris Cornell was a very talented singer, it's actually a real shame that he didn't have a better band.
Nothing more for me to really say about this topic.
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MODERATION NOTE: Just realized we had a bit of a personal dust-up between Billy and Charger there... hope that we can make amends between people even if we don't see eye to eye on preferences or issues.
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MODERATION NOTE: Just realized we had a bit of a personal dust-up between Billy and Charger there... hope that we can make amends between people even if we don't see eye to eye on preferences or issues.
Oh nothing really personal on my behalf anyways...didn't mean to make it look like that either but I guess I got carried away a bit there...
I know Billy and I don't see eye to eye on more things than we do but we still get along. Hopefully after this too! ;)
I do know Billy thinks I'm a lesser being than he is...but then again most people think that, which can only mean that I am...and I'm also okay with that too...I know what I am and I also know that ain't much. :)
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But if nothing else you've just proved you're biased and have no interest in revisiting your misunderstood perceptions based on a small fad that really had nothing to do with the genre in question in the first place. But, hey. We can't all be open minded... :)
So it would be open minded of me to force myself to listen music I do not like? Well okay...I guess I'm not open minded then...but if that's your definition you should be listening to DIO all the time then as you are sooooo open minded and everything! :D
But yeah I'm biased...I don't like listening to music I don't like. So sue me.
Once again; the way you talk about it make it seem like your opinion is based on what came after Grunge, what wrongly was called Grunge, but really had nothing to do with it. And you don't seem particulary interested in going back to check out what that actually was.
As for me and Dio, you know i was a huge fan as a teen, even some of his solo albums. I've outgrown that, just like i outgrew Stratovarius and Dimmu Borgir. But atleast i've been into it enough to actually know what i'm talking about.
MODERATION NOTE: Just realized we had a bit of a personal dust-up between Billy and Charger there...
No personal attacks here, this is just the way true friends talk to each others sometimes. Atleast how Charg and i have developed our friendship. Afiak, none of us have reported any posts yet.
Actually there was a pretty blatant "Fuck You!!!" directed towards another member in one of the more political threads recently, i was pretty surprised noone reacted to that.
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I do know Billy thinks I'm a lesser being than he is...
Well... Everyone is. :) But out of all those less than me, you rank higher than most. \../,
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Well... Everyone is. :) But out of all those less than me, you rank higher than most. \../,
Oh my...that must be the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me.... :wub:
Ooops missed this post:
Once again; the way you talk about it make it seem like your opinion is based on what came after Grunge, what wrongly was called Grunge, but really had nothing to do with it. And you don't seem particulary interested in going back to check out what that actually was.
Well what bands are you referring to then? I am more than willing to check out some bands that I have missed then considering this pre-grunge grunge thing you're talking about...
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For some reason, this got labeled Grunge, even though it's quite clear to me that it's more desert with a touch of goth/doom...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFSX5v-Nbe0
:headbanger:
Time to head to Bandcamp...
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Grunge != Metal
I do agree with Billy that there is a distinction to be made between what was being played in the clubs of the NW USA and what became record-label freeze-dried note-patterns called "grunge".
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Z; you keep talking about Stoner. You know there's a distinction between Stoner Rock and Stoner Metal, right?
And throwing "desert Rock" (aka. Stoner Rockers who don't wanna be called Stoner Rock) into the fold, they're both part of that umbrella term called alternative Rock/Metal, in which Grunge also go.
As for Stoner Metal and Doom, they're closely linked with Sludge, which (partly) has it's origins in proto-Grunge.
Seeing how all this link together, but still not being able to see how connected Grunge and Metal is, is just baffling...
What about Kyuss? Metal or not?
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Actually there was a pretty blatant "Fuck You!!!" directed towards another member in one of the more political threads recently, i was pretty surprised noone reacted to that.
And for that remark, I apologize to Billy. Something he said struck a chord within me for reasons that I will not go into here. But it was no excuse to allow anger to get the best of me. At worst I should have said "fuck that", which would have been an entirely different meaning.
Didn't mean to change the subject for which this thread was intended. I was going to send Billy a pm, but I felt that would be hiding the admission of my error, which IMO is a bit gutless. And I don't do gutless.
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Actually there was a pretty blatant "Fuck You!!!" directed towards another member in one of the more political threads recently, i was pretty surprised noone reacted to that.
And for that remark, I apologize to Billy. Something he said struck a chord within me for reasons that I will not go into here. But it was no excuse to allow anger to get the best of me. At worst I should have said "fuck that", which would have been an entirely different meaning.
Didn't mean to change the subject for which this thread was intended. I was going to send Billy a pm, but I felt that would be hiding the admission of my error, which IMO is a bit gutless. And I don't do gutless.
Water under the bridge. The most important thing is that you've seen the difference in attacking an argument and personal attacks. A "fuck that" instead would be within the parameters we've tried to set up for this site. But a first bump in the mod-road, and noone even noticed... :)) All good. And i'm happy to see you're still around, was afraid i had pushed you away with my mix of opinions and tounge-in-cheek humour... Gutless you're not, buddy. :rockon:
Back to (almost) topic: Kyuss; Metal or not?
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Kyuss has a foot in metal, but it's definitely heading toward the desert. And, yes, desert is for those who don't like the stoner label... and, yes, they're all closely related to sludge and grunge and it's really hard picking and choosing, but I know for sure when I hit stuff I don't like, chances are that the Bandcamp tags include "sludge" and/or "grunge". If I've made a really bad choice, "shoegaze" is in there or some other word ending in "-gaze".
I almost made another thread for it, but the styles are all *so* close, I thought I'd capture that frustration and keep that discussion here.
One could almost characterize the styles by drugs that fit the music...
HARD ROCK: Alcohol and cocaine
PUNK: Alcohol and meth
METAL: Cocaine and meth. And alcohol.
GRUNGE: Heroin
SLUDGE: Heroin and prescription meds way past their expiration dates
STONER: Weed
DESERT: No weed, but they're getting a contact high off the stoners in the crowd
DOOM: Absinthe and acid
SPACE: Acid and more acid
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^^^
You could add Heroin to later Punk and Goth too. There should be a genre based on Extacy/MDMA. Rave Metal... :))
But how is this not Metal? And how is it "radio-friendly" in '89? Everything with Dale Crover is automatically Metal...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-hk4IkTPgI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMDGO8RjJEg
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Indeed, how is it not metal? This is more a sliding scale than a binary yes/no thing. Sounds like we need another thread for *that* topic, as it's getting beyond the grunge/metal question.