The Community

ROCK AND ROLL! => All Them Other Guys => Topic started by: Charger on October 27, 2023, 11:43:44 AM

Title: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Charger on October 27, 2023, 11:43:44 AM
So there is one thing that has been pretty much a constant for most heavy metal bands out there and that is to have that one compulsory ballad or slow mellow song per album.

What do you think about them?

Are they just a neccessary evil to get through in order to get to the next good song?

Is is an automatic skip?

Or do you like 'em?

Which bands have done the best ballads? What are your favourite ballads?

Let the discussions begin!
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Charger on October 27, 2023, 12:59:54 PM
Me personally I'm not a big fan of ballads.

For most times it's just a skip-a-doo when one comes...More often than not they are cheesy or bland or lackluster or all of the above.

But there are few bands that do awesome ballads though.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Vyn on October 27, 2023, 01:14:58 PM
I pretty much agree with your thoughts - if a song is well crafted and is best presented as a ballad, then it usually comes out pretty well. But so many hard rock/metal bands seem to think they have to "get serious" and produce one, that most of them suck. Because the drive to create is backwards in those cases.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Zzzptm on October 27, 2023, 01:27:48 PM
My favorite metal ballad:



The lyrics are a total send up and the instrumental arrangement is 100% paint-by-numbers. When bands go ballad-y, I think of this track and compare. Some actually pull it off, most were just taking orders from record label execs.

"Joey... Joey, get me some tissue!"

 :smug:
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Charger on October 27, 2023, 04:35:16 PM
That is a good one! But I think it's more of a tongue in cheek type of a song though than a "serious" ballad. Atleast that's the way I always thought of it.

Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Zzzptm on October 27, 2023, 05:51:17 PM
That is a good one! But I think it's more of a tongue in cheek type of a song though than a "serious" ballad. Atleast that's the way I always thought of it.



100% a tongue in cheek thing. I love it even more for that!
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Charger on October 30, 2023, 09:21:15 AM
So what are your favourite ballads?

Let's get a top 10 list going!

I'm gonna have to think about this for a bit but someone else can start it off if someone so pleases.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Zzzptm on October 30, 2023, 10:44:27 AM
Number one on my list is El Paso by Marty Robbins. It's a true ballad, not a bunch of hair metallers being told to use acoustic guitars. It's a real story and has stood the test of time. Gorgeous song.

And, given that since the 1950s, "ballad" has meant less a narrative set to music and more a sentimental love story of some sort, I'll go forth in that vein. But if we need to pick metal/power ballads, I'll be somewhat at a loss.

No ranking yet, but tossing out sentimental love songs that resonate with me... The Leader of the Pack (The Shangri-Las) ; Me and Mrs. Jones (Billy Paul) ; Stairway to Heaven (The O'Jays) ; You Got Your Hooks in Me (The O'Jays) ; Don't Leave Me This Way (Harold Melvin & The Blue Notes / also Thelma Houston) ; Rainbow Eyes (Ritchie Blackmore's Rainbow feat. Ronnie James Dio) ; I Ain't No Nice Guy (Motorhead, and not sentimental love, but still a powerful ballad)

Had to think for the last two, but the rest came very easily to me, and there is much more in the soul and early rock catalog that I find sentimental without being sappy.

And now I recall Todd Rundgren (solo and with Utopia) had some great ballad tunes that weren't sappy at all - Just One Victory, Cold Morning Light, Hello It's Me, I Will Wait, More Light, Rock Love, The Very Last Time

Cat Stevens' Oh Very Young always gets me right in the tear ducts. Beautiful song.

Seal's Kiss From a Rose is another beautifully-crafted ballad.

Oh - absolutely can't forget Gordon Lightfoot's The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. I cry more for that one as an adult knowing the full story of the fathers, brothers, and husbands lost in that tragedy. They were loved, and so it is truly a love song.

Got a number of Bollywood ballads that always do their job of getting me to tear up - Kal Ho Naa Ho, Hamesha Tumko Chaha, Aaya Tere Dar Par, Bole Chudiya, Maar Dala, Mai Yahan To Wahan, Tera Chehra... They may be off the table for this list, but I can't pass over them.

Wind of Change by The Scorpions now comes to mind. I actually whistled that tune as I took a boat cruise along the Moskva, down towards Gorki Park. :)

I Wish It Would Rain by The Temptations ; Walk on By by Isaac Hayes ; Bernadette by The Four Tops ; Then Came You by The Spinners with Dionne Warwick... my soul list goes on...

For rock, Badfinger had a number of good, well-done ballads: Day After Day, Without You, Baby Blue

Bob Seger's Night Moves is a true gem of songwriting.

Ron Wood's vocal delivery on The Faces' Ooh La La just makes that song so magical.

Not a huge fan of Maggie May, but it's a damn sight better than any old hair metal ballad out there.

Janis Joplin was fantastic with Cry Baby, A Woman Left Lonely, My Baby, Me and Bobby McGee, Trust Me, and Get It While You Can - wonderful delivery from a life that ended too soon.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Vyn on October 30, 2023, 12:49:52 PM
Agree with a lot of what you mentioned - although I despise Bernadette. One of the few songs I will actively try and turn off if I have anyway to do so. Also, I have zero knowledge or experience with anything from India. Night Moves was where Seger reached his pinnacle of songwriting and delivery - he had a lot of hits afterwards, but nothing ever approached that song again.

I'd toss Beyond the Realms of Death from Judas Priest in there - I saw Charger indicate he doesn't consider it a ballad, and I can see his reasoning, but for some reason I always have. I guess it is such a different feel from the opener on Stained Class that it pushes me to think that way about it.

For me, ballads should have a timeless quality tied to their narrative structures, evocative lyrics, and emotive melodies. Here's a list of my top ten ballads, regardless of genre. Each captures something eternal about the human experience, making them enduring classics:


1. "Whispering Pines" - The Band (1969)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Extra-Bonus Why?, Since it is Number One: I consider this the quintessential ballad due to its emotive storytelling, haunting melodies, and evocative instrumental accompaniment. The song is primarily sung by Richard Manuel, whose plaintive vocals bring a tangible sense of melancholy and longing to the lyrics.

Lyrically, "Whispering Pines" explores themes of loneliness, yearning, and the passage of time. The pines themselves serve as both literal and metaphorical witnesses to the human condition, imbuing the song with a sense of timeless nature — the trees have been around for years and will continue to be, long after individual human plights have been resolved. This gives the song a layer of existential contemplation that is relatable across generations.

Musically, the song has a lush arrangement. The piano lines provide a haunting backdrop, while the other instruments and vocals fill in the emotional texture of the song. The Band was known for its ability to blend rock, folk, and country into a cohesive and distinctive sound, and "Whispering Pines" exemplifies this with its eclectic mix of styles. The song doesn't adhere strictly to a traditional verse-chorus structure, which gives it a free-flowing, almost ethereal quality.

The greatness of this ballad lies in its complexity and depth; it's a song that I can return to time and again, each time finding something new to appreciate. Whether it's the nuanced performances, the layered lyrical themes, or the atmospheric musical arrangement, "Whispering Pines" captures a mood and a moment in a way that continues to resonate with me, making it a truly timeless piece, and my number one ballad.


2. "Unchained Melody" - The Righteous Brothers (1965)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Why?: The soulful vocal delivery and the emotive lyrics about yearning make it an evergreen choice for romantic moments.


3. "He Stopped Loving Her Today" - George Jones (1980)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Why?: This country ballad delves into the depths of love and loss, capturing human emotion so raw that it continues to resonate with people today.


4. "Stairway to Heaven" - Led Zeppelin (1971)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Why?: With its poetic lyrics and gradual crescendo from acoustic to electric instrumentation, this rock ballad taps into universal themes of quest and transcendence.


5. "Billie Jean" - Michael Jackson (1982)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Why?: Although not a traditional ballad, its compelling storyline and unforgettable groove make it a ballad of sorts, dealing with themes of reputation and doubt that are ever pertinent.


6. "Hallelujah" - Leonard Cohen (1984)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Why?: Mixing religious allegory with real human experience, its haunting melody and deeply introspective lyrics make it pertinent across various contexts and genres.


7. "Strange Mercy" - St. Vincent (2011)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Why?: A "modern" classic that combines indie rock and electronic elements, its themes of identity and human frailty will likely continue to resonate for years to come.


8. "The Sound of Silence" - Simon & Garfunkel (1965)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Why?: With its commentary on communication and isolation, it's a contemplative ballad that remains relevant in an ever-connected yet emotionally distanced society.


9. "The Night We Met" - Lord Huron (2015)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Why?: With its ethereal melody and deeply nostalgic lyrics, it speaks to the idea of love lost and the desire to turn back time.


10. "Purple Rain" - Prince (1984)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Why?: This rock and R&B crossover combines searing guitar work with vulnerable lyrics, cementing its place as a quintessential ballad about the end of a relationship. I have never been a Prince fan, but greatness is greatness. Frankly, I'm not a fan of most of the artists in my top ten list, but those specific songs, whether it was the lyric, the arrangement, the production, the time and place I first heard it, or a combination thereof set them apart.


Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: KiloDeltaCharlie on October 30, 2023, 01:29:05 PM
I'll have to think about this.

I do think Always on My Mind by Elvis could make the list even though I'm not a fan of his work.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Zzzptm on October 30, 2023, 02:38:16 PM
Suspicious Minds by Elvis is one I gotta put on my list, crowded though it is. Also Love Me Tender.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Thelemech on October 30, 2023, 05:04:29 PM
I am somewhat conflicted when it comes to ballads as I usually hate them but once awhile I really like some of them

I really like Forever by KISS and I love Mama I'm Coming Home by Ozzy
Also Jethro Tull has some great ballads
And also The Beatles and The Rolling Stones have some great ones 👌

Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Vyn on October 30, 2023, 08:07:28 PM
I am somewhat conflicted when it comes to ballads as I usually hate them but once awhile I really like some of them

This describes my relationship with ye olde ballad. I mean, there's an entire genre dedicated to rock ballads, ye insufferable "power ballad", that for the most part are insipid attempts by rock bands at gaining fans of the female persuasion.

There's also a bunch of songs that otherwise seem like ballads that I don't think of as such. "Emma" by Hot Hot Hot Chocolate, or "Wish You Were Here" by Pinkus Floydus, or even "Poison" by Alicester Cooperville that I like.

But the ones I like, I like lol. Heck, one of them I listed above - that song from Leonard Cohen, I don't even like, but I like the introspective mood it always instills in me. Perhaps I'm drain bamaged!
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Charger on October 31, 2023, 10:32:32 AM
My list will feature only metal and rock bands as those are the ones I know best. I do enjoy some Melanie C's ballads as well...


1. Savatage - Believe
To me this is the ULTIMATE ballad. Jon's voice is made for these kinds of sad songs as he's got tons of emotion. The piano and Criss' guitars just amp up the feeling factor to 11.
This is how to make a GOOD...no....strike that...an EXCELLENT ballad!

2. Rainbow - Catch The Rainbow (Live)
Another quintessential ballad. However this song truly came to life during the live preformances with some added "umph" if you will. Ronnie's vocals especially on the live versions from 1977 are nothing short of amazing and Ritchie's guitar was at it's finest at that point.

3. Deep Purple - When A Blind Man Cries (Live)
This is yet again another song that only truly came alive when preformed live. The version on Live At The Olympia is mind blowingly emotional. Steve's guitar work and Jon's organs make this song. The album version lacks something...

4. DIO - As Long As It's Not About Love
Ronnie didn't like doing many ballads. And I've always given him high respect for that. Too many bands did ballads just for the sake of doing ballads (Metallica anyone??!?!) which usually tend to be either bad or horrible. But Ronnie kind of stayed away from those...in fact the DIO band only recorded two songs that can be considered ballads, This Was Your Life and this one. I do like 'em both but this one takes the lead as it is more of a complete song with very powerful and emotional instrumentals...and Ronnie's voice is just filled with emotion here. A Great song.

5. Iced Earth - When The Eagle Cries

This is hands down one of the saddest songs ever written about the horrible terrorist attacks of 9/11. Tim "Ripper" Owens delivers a staggeringly emotional preformance and Jon's guitar work is sublime. It's hard not to cry when listening to this song.

6.. Judas Priest - Close To You
Priest is another band that didn't do too many out right ballads. Vyn and I talked about Beyond The Realms Of Death on another thread...I can't really bring myself to call it a ballad. They however did do 2 ballads on Demolition and they are both surprisingly good...Close To You is very classic ballad but it also doesn't really feel forced. Tim's voice is also one that can carry a ton of emotion and this one sure works as well.

7. Megadeth - Promises

When I was doing my Megadeth collection for my car I didn't expect to put any ballads on it as Megadeth's ballads too tend to be bit cheesy and lackluster (A Tout Le Mond anyone???) but when I listened to The World Needs A Hero again this song truly stood out. Sure it's about as classical as a ballad can be but it just kind of works and Dave's vocal preformance on it is very good as well.

8. Blaze Bayley - Meant To Be
Blaze has one those voices that carries a huuuuuge ammount of emotion and he makes every bit of it count on this song from the suberb Tenth Dimension album. This is both musically and vocally suberb song...and one that I never EVER skip.

9. Savatage - Alone You Breathe

Another one from Savatage! This time with Zak Stevens on vocals who also has an exeptionally emotional voice. This song was written shortly after Criss Oliva passed away and it just oozes heartache. This also reuses some of the lyrics from Believe which make perfect sense in a lot of ways. This is an over 7 minute song but it just works. And it's a great tribute to one of the greatest guitar players of our time.

10. Black Sabbath - Over And Over
Sabbath kind of went over the top with the ballads on TE and NSD and they were all absolutely HORRIBLE...cheesy, silly, lackluster and had ZERO emotion. It was clear that the band was totally out of ideas and any kind of driving force. So it was understandable that they didn't do any ballads on Heaven And Hell...eventhough Lonely Is The Word is an exeptionally sad song about loneliness it isn't musically really a ballad. But Over And Over was more of ballad and Ronnie again shows how much emotion his voice can carry and Tony's guitar wails like there's no tomorrow.
This was actually a pretty close call with Solitude which is also a very solid ballad and one of the only ballads that actually work with Ozzy's voice...mainly because he uses it quite differently. But in the end Over And Over took the lead.


80s was a horrible time for ballads which is quite evident in the list here as well with only one song and even that's from 81. The cheese factor was MASSIVE in the 80s and power ballads became the rule of the game. Most of them being atrocious. Whitesnake, Bon Jovi, Guns & Roses....yuck beyond YUCK. Can't stand them.


I could add that Alice Cooper had some good ballads as well...but some not so good ones too.

I agree 100% with Thel on the topic...most ballads suck but every now and then there does come a gem....but rarely.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Zzzptm on October 31, 2023, 12:59:41 PM
^ I could sign on to that list, really well-curated.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Jack the Stripper on November 01, 2023, 12:54:57 AM

I really like Forever by KISS and I love Mama I'm Coming Home by Ozzy
Good shout with those two Thel, personally I think “I Still Love You” from Creatures of the Night is not only Kiss’s best ballad but one of the very best ballads from the genre. And Mama is one of Ozzy’s best for sure. He has one of the most emotive voices out there when it comes to ballads, how anyone can think otherwise or think he’s not suited to ballads is honestly beyond me.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Vyn on November 01, 2023, 05:02:50 AM
Some great selections - All stand-outs with unique "feel". Unlike a bunch of songs, al in the same vein. Not bad songs, and depending on the time and place, pretty good. But...Def Leppard's, "Bringin' on the Heartbreak". It has the same sort of lilting feel that Krokus later brought with, "Screaming in the Night." Or The Scorpions', "Still Loving You." Or April Wine's, "Just Between You and Me." Or 90% of Shooting Star's output. Same with Triumph. Or Boston. It's like one big song. Somewhat different base topics, but the same feel.

But, the women back in the day. Sitting around a park bench drinking beer and blasting Black Sabbath/Deep Purple/Cactus/etc and over time other dudes would start to accumulate around us. Good times. If we blasted something like Boston, women would accumulate. Even better times.

But, when my buddy had Rainbow blasting on his car stereo and a certain woman floated over to us - the best time. I ended up marrying her.

Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Charger on November 01, 2023, 09:03:31 AM
That's a nice story Vyn! Good music attracts good people.

Regarding Ozzy...the problem I've always had was bit of a two sider....A: most of Ozzy's ballads are extemely general and basic, ballads by the numbers type of songs.... and B: Ozzy's monotone delivery doesn't exactly scream emotion now does it...

Out of Ozzy's catalogue I would probably raise out 3 ballads that aren't bad. Goodbye To Romance, Road To Nowhere and although being very very very very cheesy, Mama I'm Coming Home which is probably his best vocal preformance on a ballad eventhough the lyrics are rather silly.


Ballads are very tricky songs...one might say that 9 out of 10 ballads are overly cheesy and actually lack the emotion they are trying to convey. Also the fact that some singers have emotion in their voice and others simply don't. And yes that is also I believe a subjective view...others might find emotion in something other's don't.

I've always found it odd why certain bands think that it's an absolute must to have a ballad on each album...as more often than not it just ends up being a skip-a-doo song.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Ted Sallis on November 01, 2023, 09:33:39 AM
There are two ballads I'd like to mention:

Fade to Black - Metallica: their 1st and best ballad in my view.  Putting a song like this on their 2nd album was seen as a bold move and it indicated just how much they were willing to venture into new musical territory and embrace change.

Hard Hearted Alice - Alice Cooper: an amazing introspective song about the trials of success, it quite aptly was inspired by the Group having reached the pinnacle of their popularity earlier that year (1973).

I may add more shortly.

Ted
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: KiloDeltaCharlie on November 01, 2023, 02:02:20 PM
I'll start with a few that came to mind. I won;t duplicate what others have included.


Emerson, Lake and Palmer - Still... You Turn Me On

The Stranglers - Princess of the Street. A slow bluesy song

Yes - Turn of the Century

New Model Army - Someone Like Jesus


I will almost certainly add to this list!
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Jack the Stripper on November 01, 2023, 03:45:51 PM
That's a nice story Vyn! Good music attracts good people.

Regarding Ozzy...the problem I've always had was bit of a two sider....A: most of Ozzy's ballads are extemely general and basic, ballads by the numbers type of songs.... and B: Ozzy's monotone delivery doesn't exactly scream emotion now does it...

Out of Ozzy's catalogue I would probably raise out 3 ballads that aren't bad. Goodbye To Romance, Road To Nowhere and although being very very very very cheesy, Mama I'm Coming Home which is probably his best vocal preformance on a ballad eventhough the lyrics are rather silly.


Ballads are very tricky songs...one might say that 9 out of 10 ballads are overly cheesy and actually lack the emotion they are trying to convey. Also the fact that some singers have emotion in their voice and others simply don't. And yes that is also I believe a subjective view...others might find emotion in something other's don't.

I've always found it odd why certain bands think that it's an absolute must to have a ballad on each album...as more often than not it just ends up being a skip-a-doo song.
I agree that some of Ozzy’s ballads are overly sappy but he is definitely not a monotone singer. Whilst you may not like She’s Gone for its sappiness that song is very heartfelt and dripping with emotion. Where’s to me, Blaze Bayley is the very definition of a monotone singer, which is why I never liked him in Maiden, where’s Ripper isn’t a monotone singer but it’s his bland vocal melodies that don’t do it for me. Besides a couple of songs from Demolition, nothing sticks or is hooky enough to remember or make you wanna singalong to him.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Charger on November 01, 2023, 04:19:23 PM
As I said subjective....but most people would very much disagree with you on most of that. Ozzy is one of the if not even THE most monotone singer in history. And that's not all a bad thing, he makes it work for most stuff but emotion isn't one of them...for emotion you need to have variety in your voice and in your delivery... Ozzy just has none of that...

But this isn't really about that, it's about good and bad ballads... ;)
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Zzzptm on November 01, 2023, 05:29:19 PM
DON'T STOP

BELIEEEEEEVIN'
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Charger on November 02, 2023, 09:15:37 AM
EDIT:

Nah forget it.

I'm not gonna get sucked into this shit again. I know Jack hates my guts and just wants to keep kicking me every chance he gets but now I'm just gonna be the bigger man and let this out of topic nonsense go.

Cleaned up the topic a bit so we can carry on talking about ballads.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Charger on November 02, 2023, 09:26:34 AM
So back on track.

I'll start with a few that came to mind. I won;t duplicate what others have included.


Emerson, Lake and Palmer - Still... You Turn Me On

The Stranglers - Princess of the Street. A slow bluesy song

Yes - Turn of the Century

New Model Army - Someone Like Jesus


I will almost certainly add to this list!


I have to honestly say I have never heard any of these songs...know very little about the bands either...might have to go to the youtube and check some of these out.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Charger on November 02, 2023, 09:59:56 AM
I did notice one thing that I totally forgot to mention after my list.

I was supposed to talk a bit about Motörhead. So I might as well do so now.

They've also done some good ballad-type songs over the years.
Top one ofcourse being Whorehouse Blues which is a tongue in cheek type song for sure and it's loads of fun. Always loved that song.

Another one worth mentioning I'd say is Love Me Forever. Although I think the duet with Lemmy and Doro is the ultimate version.

If you haven't heard it I'd highly recommend checking it out.

Here's a great live version:



Till The End from Bad Magic also ended up being a bit prophetic and as such deserves to be mentioned.

I think Whorehouse Blues could have made it on the list but there's very little chance of me putting on a top 10 list without including Black Sabbath!  8)
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Zzzptm on November 02, 2023, 10:25:12 AM
Lemmy and Doro do a fantastic number there, no question.

And I will admit I liked "More Than Words" from Extreme when it came out. Of all the power ballads, it found a way to stand out. Don't know why it did for me, but it did.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Zzzptm on November 02, 2023, 10:56:44 AM
I have to come back to soul ballads - there's even the sub-genre of "quiet storm" recordings for that niche. Soul emerged from emotional and expressive gospel singing, so it lends itself very well to emotional and expressive love ballads. The typical instrumentation, song structure, vocal stylizations, all work so well for a strong ballad. Country and Folk also have a strong musical vocabulary for ballads.

Then there's metal.

The whole point of metal is a harder, more aggressive sound. Often, the lyrics that go best with metal are about driving fast, casual sex, nuclear war, and satanic rituals. Not really the stuff of proper love ballads, right? :smug:

The drop back to acoustic arrangements with an electric guitar solo makes many of those so-called "power ballads" more of a country/folk song with metal guitar solo than a metal song with acoustic guitars.

Can a song stay properly metal and still be a ballad? Or does the act of singing a ballad take the metal edge off of things and then we have a country/folk song played very loudly?
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Vyn on November 02, 2023, 02:23:22 PM
Can a song stay properly metal and still be a ballad? Or does the act of singing a ballad take the metal edge off of things and then we have a country/folk song played very loudly?

I think there are intelligent arguments that can be made both for and against it. And then, just plain personal opinion tossed in to make it impossible to have one, "officially correct," classification. Whatever, "official," means.

But, that's not a copout on my part - just wanted to open with what I think about it objectively. Personally, I think it's possible.

As you stated, metal has a certain sound. And I think that a ballad, which also has a certain sound, is at odds with some of the fundamental characteristics of a metal song. But not enough to make them mutually exclusive!

A heavy metal group playing a ballad? For sure. Of course guitar tone and volume level alone don't make a song metal or ballad. Take Judas Priest's BTROD - I call it a ballad, Charger does not. Both takes make sense to me. But the track, residing within the storied album "Stained Class," captures the emotional depth and complexity that can be found within the metal genre as a whole. Laced with poignant lyrics, the song delves into themes of despair, isolation, and the struggle for inner freedom. Musically, it juxtaposes the somber melodies of a ballad with the raw power of heavy metal, utilizing an evocative blend of Rob Halford's hauntingly melodic vocals, and the twin guitar onslaught of Glenn Tipton and K.K. Downing. This synergy results in a dynamic ebb and flow, with moments of gentle introspection escalating into soaring crescendos of intense sonic energy. "Beyond the Realms of Death" showcases Judas Priest's ability to harness the emotional spectrum of the human experience and encapsulate it within the thunderous realm of heavy metal.

What am I trying to say here? That it could be either, and they're both not wrong. LOL And I think the same could be applied to other songs as well.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Zzzptm on November 02, 2023, 02:56:51 PM
Giving a spin to BTROD now... listening carefully and, yes, it's that metal in the tune. The whole model is something we see again in Watch the Children Pray from Metal Church - but neither are romantic in nature, so does the metal ballad lend itself to the older, broader definition of a storytelling sort of song and not necessarily a romantic topic?

Stained Class came out in 1978, early in the history of metal, and that track is something I'd call a definitive template. Digging back 5 years, I get Uriah Heep's Circle of Hands, which is one of those songs that always gets me, right in the heart.



Instead of acoustic guitar, it's the organ that provides the lighter-touch instrumentation in the verses, lending a more spiritual element to the piece. The key elements of a metal/power ballad are all there, so I see this as much a template for future work as Priest's track. Makes ya want to get out the lighter and wave it in the air, for sure!

That same year, 1973, saw the release of Pronounced Lynyrd Skynyrd, which has Tuesday's Gone, Simple Man, and Freebird. While not metal, they have hard rock elements, particularly Simple Man and Freebird. The band does not go for acoustic, but does achieve a dynamic difference between verses and chorus to bring in that ballad-y emotional effect.

In 1982, we get a great ballad from Whitesnake, the original "Here I Go Again" from Sinners & Saints. Jon Lord takes a page from Ken Hensley with the organ background to Coverdale's vocals, and then the guitars strum a little before we have the swing-your-mug-along chorus that bangs out the chords for us all. It's not overdone or overproduced like the later version, and is a favorite of mine.


 
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Vyn on November 02, 2023, 04:15:33 PM
Today is only yesterday's tomorrow :)
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Charger on November 02, 2023, 04:20:56 PM
I think I mentioned Whitesnake being one of the bands whos ballads I do not like at all! And Here I Go Again (sorry zzzz) is on top of my least favourite ballads of all time! :D
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Zzzptm on November 02, 2023, 04:51:50 PM
I think I mentioned Whitesnake being one of the bands whos ballads I do not like at all! And Here I Go Again (sorry zzzz) is on top of my least favourite ballads of all time! :D

Even that earlier, non-hair metal version? I think it's an honestly good song.

Meanwhile, me and Vyn are singing along to Circle of Hands... :D
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Charger on November 02, 2023, 05:34:40 PM
Hmmm...I don't know...didn't know there were two versions...
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Vyn on November 02, 2023, 05:40:02 PM
Hmmm...I don't know...didn't know there were two versions...

I like the original version much better than their second go-'round. It has an entirely different feel and comes across less like some player just bopping around between every woman he meets and more like a spiritual, soul-searching tune.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Vyn on November 02, 2023, 05:44:20 PM
Meanwhile, me and Vyn are singing along to Circle of Hands... :D

Great selection, and I think you're the first person I've ever heard mention it.

I thought I was the only one hahaha

That entire side of Demons & Wizards is top-notch Heep.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Zzzptm on November 03, 2023, 09:26:18 AM
Agreed, Demons & Wizards is magical. I would make 90-minute tapes with an album on each side for playing in my car. I did that because the cassette player was gonna eat the tape one day, so why not just feed it a cheap copy and preserve the original? At any rate, I could trade tapes. I had D&W on one side of a cassette and some other currently-popular album on the other side, can't remember which one, but I lent out that tape to a friend at school because he wanted to hear it. A few weeks later, I asked for it back, and he didn't have it. Why? Well, he loved D&W so much, he was sharing it around with more people and they were turned on to it and THEY were sharing it out and damn we just weren't gonna see that cassette again, were we? But it was such an awesome album, I totally understood. :)


Anyway, back to ballads...


I was talking about soul earlier, how that church influence really REALLY made their ballads strong. Well, the use of the organ in Circle of Hands, the original Here I Go Again, and Freebird all provide a sort of church-y element, that great big echoing organ, connecting the listener to some higher idea. Those songs' use of the organ brings in chord progressions common to denominations that those musicians were familiar with, just as soul brought in the musical vocabulary of the religious traditions common to those performers.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Zzzptm on November 03, 2023, 09:34:55 AM
Here is an interesting combination of the acoustic intro and the church organ feel:



One of my favorites from Stormbringer, great album closer. But adding in the mellotron at the end adds that much more depth to the tune.

Both David Coverdale solo and Blackmore's Night did versions of it, with Coverdale doing his with just an acoustic guitar for a totally stripped-down and raw performance and Blackmore's Night adding in the band to an otherwise acoustic performance right at the end. Both are amazing renditions. But, neither are actual metal ballads, so I'll leave finding them on YouTube as an exercise for the interested.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Charger on November 03, 2023, 09:47:38 AM
I actually much prefer the Blackmore's Night version to the orginal of that song. Candice's voice suits that song so damn well! But yeah it might be bit questionable if it's a ballad or not...I think I'd almost say that yes it is.
Title: Re: Ballads...Love 'em or Hate 'em?
Post by: Zzzptm on November 03, 2023, 09:51:20 AM
I actually much prefer the Blackmore's Night version to the orginal of that song. Candice's voice suits that song so damn well! But yeah it might be bit questionable if it's a ballad or not...I think I'd almost say that yes it is.

There definitely lyrics about love lost/won/lost sorts of things, I'd say so, too. It's romantic, and definitely not sappy.